The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume I Part 35

M^r Wilson approved the principle, but could not see how it could be carried into execution; unless restrained to direct taxation.

M^r Gov^r Morris having so varied his Motion by inserting the word "direct." It pa.s.s^d nem. con. as follows--"provided always that direct taxation ought to be proportioned to representation."

M^r Davie said it was high time now to speak out. He saw that it was meant by some gentlemen to deprive the Southern States of any share of Representation for their blacks. He was sure that N. Carol^a would never confederate on any terms that did not rate them at least as 3/5. If the Eastern States meant therefore to exclude them altogether the business was at an end.

D^r Johnson, thought that wealth and population were the true, equitable rule of representation; but he conceived that these two principles resolved themselves into one; population being the best measure of wealth. He concluded therefore that y^e number of people ought to be established as the rule, and that all descriptions including blacks _equally_ with the Whites, ought to fall within the computation. As various opinions had been expressed on the subject, he would move that a Committee might be appointed to take them into consideration and report thereon.

M^r Gov^r Morris. It has been said that it is high time to speak out, as one member, he would candidly do so. He came here to form a compact for the good of America. He was ready to do so with all the States. He hoped & believed that all would enter into such a Compact. If they would not he was ready to join with any States that would. But as the Compact was to be voluntary, it is in vain for the Eastern States to insist on what the South^n States will never agree to. It is equally vain for the latter to require what the other States can never admit; and he verily believed the people of Pen^a will never agree to a representation of Negroes. What can be desired by these States more than has been already proposed; that the Legislature shall from time to time regulate Representation according to population & wealth.

Gen^l Pinkney desired that the rule of wealth should be ascertained and not left to the pleasure of the Legislature; and that property in slaves should not be exposed to danger under a Gov^t inst.i.tuted for the protection of property.

The first clause in the Report of the first Grand Committee was postponed.

M^r Elseworth. In order to carry into effect the principle established, moved that to add to the last clause adopted by the House the words following, "and that the rule of contribution by direct taxation for the support of the Government of the U. States shall be the number of white inhabitants, and three fifths of every other description in the several States, until some other rule that shall more accurately ascertain the wealth of the several States can be devised and adopted by the Legislature."

M^r Butler seconded the motion in order that it might be committed.

M^r Randolph was not satisfied with the motion. The danger will be revived that the ingenuity of the Legislature may evade or pervert the rule so as to perpetuate the power where it shall be lodged in the first instance. He proposed in lieu of M^r Elseworth's motion, "that in order to ascertain the alterations in Representation that may be required from time to time by changes in the relative circ.u.mstances of the States, a Census shall be taken within two years from the 1^{st} meeting of the Gen^l Legislature of the U.S. and once within the term of every ---- year afterwards, of all the inhabitants in the manner & according to the ratio recommended by Congress in their resolution of the 18^{th} day of Ap^l 1783, (rating the blacks at 3/5 of their number) and that the Legislature of the U. S. shall arrange the Representation accordingly."

He urged strenuously that express security ought to be provided for including slaves in the ratio of Representation. He lamented that such a species of property existed. But as it did exist the holders of it would require this security. It was perceived that the design was entertained by some of excluding slaves altogether; the Legislature therefore ought not to be left at liberty.

M^r Elseworth withdraws his motion & seconds that of M^r Randolph.

M^r Wilson observed that less umbrage would perhaps be taken ag^{st} an admission of the slaves into the Rule of representation, if it should be so expressed as to make them indirectly only an ingredient in the rule, by saying that they should enter into the rule of taxation; and as representation was to be according to taxation, the end would be equally attained. He accordingly moved & was 2^{ded} so to alter the last clause adopted by the House, that together with the amendment proposed the whole should read as follows--provided always that the representation ought to be proportioned according to direct taxation, and in order to ascertain the alterations in the direct taxation which may be required from time to time by the changes in the relative circ.u.mstances of the States, Resolved that a census be taken within two years from the first meeting of the Legislature of the U. States, and once within the term of every ---- years afterwards of all the inhabitants of the U.S. in the manner and according to the ratio recommended by Congress in their Resolution of April 18. 1783; and that the Legislature of the U.S. shall proportion the direct taxation accordingly.

M^r King. Altho' this amendment varies the aspect somewhat, he had still two powerful objections ag^{st} tying down the Legislature to the rule of numbers. 1. they were at this time an uncertain index of the relative wealth of the States. 2. if they were a just index at this time it can not be supposed always to continue so. He was far from wis.h.i.+ng to retain any unjust advantage whatever in one part of the Republic. If justice was not the basis of the connection it could not be of long duration. He must be shortsighted indeed who does not foresee that whenever the Southern States shall be more numerous than the Northern, they can & will hold a language that will awe them into justice. If they threaten to separate now in case injury shall be done them, will their threats be less urgent or effectual, when force shall back their demands. Even in the intervening period, there will be no point of time at which they will not be able to say, do us justice or we will separate. He urged the necessity of placing confidence to a certain degree in every Gov^t and did not conceive that the proposed confidence as to a periodical readjustment of the representation exceeded that degree.

M^r Pinkney moved to amend M^r Randolph's motion so as to make "blacks equal to the whites in the ratio of representation." This he urged was nothing more than justice. The blacks are the labourers, the peasants of the Southern States: they are as productive of pecuniary resources as those of the Northern States. They add equally to the wealth, and considering money as the sinew of war, to the strength of the nation. It will also be politic with regard to the Northern States, as taxation is to keep pace with Representation.

Gen^l Pinkney moves to insert 6 years instead of two, as the period computing from the 1^{st} meeting of y^e Legis^e within which the first census should be taken. On this question for inserting six, instead of "two" in the proposition of M^r Wilson, it pa.s.sed in the affirmative

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. div^d. May^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On a question for filling the blank for y^e periodical census with 20 years, it pa.s.sed in the negative

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P. ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no.

N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On a question for 10 years, it pa.s.sed in the affirmative.

Ma.s.s. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P. ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay.

N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On M^r Pinkney's motion for rating blacks as equal to Whites instead of as 3/5.

Ma.s.s. no. Con^t no. (D^r Johnson ay) N. J. no. P^a no. (3 ag^{st} 2.) Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo--ay.

M^r Randolph's proposition as varied by M^r Wilson being read for question on the whole--

M^r Gerry, urged that the principle of it could not be carried into execution as the States were not to be taxed as States. With regard to taxes in imposts, he conceived they would be more productive Where there were no slaves than where there were; the consumption being greater--

M^r Elseworth. In case of a poll tax there w^d be no difficulty. But there w^d probably be none. The sum allotted to a State may be levied without difficulty according to the plan used by the State in raising its own supplies. On the question of y^e whole proposition; as proportioning representation to direct taxation & both to the white & 3/5 of black inhabitants, & requiring a Census within six years--& within every ten years afterwards.

Ma.s.s. div^d. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay.

N. C. ay. S. C. div^d. Geo. ay.

FRIDAY, JULY 13. IN CONVENTION.

It being moved to postpone the clause in the Report of the Committee of Eleven as to the originating of money bills in _the first_ branch, in order to take up the following--"that in the 2^d branch each State shall have an equal voice,"

M^r Gerry, moved to add as an amendment to the last clause agreed to by the House, "that from the first meeting of the Legislature of the U.S.

till a census shall be taken all monies to be raised for supplying the public Treasury by direct taxation shall be a.s.sessed on the inhabitants of the several States according to the number of their Representatives respectively in the 1^{st} branch." He said this would be as just before as after the Census; according to the general principle that taxation & Representation ought to go together.

M^r Williamson feared that N. Hamps.h.i.+re will have reason to complain. 3 members were allotted to her as a liberal allowance, for this reason among others, that she might not suppose any advantage to have been taken of her absence. As she was still absent, and had no opportunity of deciding whether she would chuse to retain the number on the condition, of her being taxed in proportion to it, he thought the number ought to be reduced from three to two, before the question was taken on M^r G's motion.

M^r Read could not approve of the proposition. He had observed he said in the Committee a backwardness in some of the members from the large States, to take their full proportion of Representatives. He did not then see the motive. He now suspects it was to avoid their due share of taxation. He had no objection to a just & accurate adjustment of Representation & taxation to each other.

M^r Gov^r Morris & M^r Madison answered that the charge itself involved an acquittal; since notwithstanding the augmentation of the number of members allotted to Ma.s.s^{ts} & V^a the motion for proportioning the burdens thereto was made by a member from the former State & was approved by M^r M. from the latter who was on the Com^e. M^r Gov^r Morris said that he thought P^a had her due share in 8 members; and he could not in candor ask for more. M^r M. said that having always conceived that the difference of interest in the U. States lay not between the large & small, but the N. & South^n States, and finding that the number of members allotted to the N. States was greatly superior, he should have preferred, an addition of two members to the S. States, to wit one to N. & 1 to S. Carl^a rather than of one member to Virg^a. He liked the present motion, because it tended to moderate the views both of the opponents & advocates for rating very high, the negroes.

M^r Elseworth hoped the proposition would be withdrawn. It entered too much into detail. The general principle was already sufficiently settled. As fractions can not be regarded in apportioning the _N^o of representatives_, the rule will be unjust, until an actual census shall be made. After that taxation may be precisely proportioned according to the principle established, to the _number of inhabitants_.

M^r Wilson hoped the motion would not be withdrawn. If it sh^d it will be made from another quarter. The rule will be as reasonable & just before, as after a Census. As to fractional numbers, the Census will not destroy, but ascertain them. And they will have the same effect after as before the Census; for as he understands the rule, it is to be adjusted not to the number of _inhabitants_, but of _Representatives_.

M^r Sherman opposed the motion. He thought the Legislature ought to be left at liberty: in which case they would probably conform to the principles observed by Cong^s.

M^r Mason did not know that Virg^a would be a loser by the proposed regulation, but had some scruple as to the justice of it. He doubted much whether the conjectural rule which was to precede the Census, would be as just, as it would be rendered by an actual census.

M^r Elseworth & M^r Sherman moved to postpone the motion of M^r Gerry.

On y^e question, it pa.s.sed in the negative. Ma.s.s. no. Con^t ay. N. J.

ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Question on M^r Gerry's motion, it pa.s.sed in the negative, the States being equally divided.

Ma.s.s. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. _P^a ay._ Del. no. M^d no.

_V^a no._ N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gerry finding that the loss of the question had proceeded from an objection with some, to the proposed a.s.sessment of direct taxes on the _inhabitants_ of the States, which might restrain the Legislature to a poll tax, moved his proposition again, but so varied as to authorize the a.s.sessment on the _States_, which leaves the mode to the Legislature, viz "that from the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature of the U. S. untill a census shall be taken, all monies for supplying the public Treasury by direct taxation shall be raised from the said several States according to the number of their representatives respectively in the 1^{st} branch."

On this varied question, it pa.s.sed in the affirmative

Mas. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. _P^a div^d_ Del. no. M^d no.

_V^a ay._ N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the motion of M^r Randolph, the vote of sat.u.r.day last authorizing the Legisl^{re} to adjust from time to time, the representation upon the principles of _wealth_ & numbers of inhabitants, was reconsidered by common consent in order to strike out "Wealth" and adjust the resolution to that requiring periodical revisions, according to the number of whites & three fifths of the blacks: the motion was in the words following:--"But as the present situation of the States may probably alter in the number of their inhabitants, that the Legislature of the U.

S. be authorized from time to time to apportion the number of representatives; and in case any of the States shall hereafter be divided or any two or more States united or new States created within the limits of the U. S. the Legislature of U. S. shall possess authority to regulate the number of Representatives in any of the foregoing cases, upon the principle of their number of inhabitants; according to the provisions hereafter mentioned."