The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume I Part 23

M^r Hamilton apprehended inconveniency from _fixing_ the wages. He was strenuous ag^{st} making the National Council dependent on the Legislative rewards of the States. Those who pay are the masters of those who are paid. Payment by the States would be unequal as the distant States would have to pay for the same term of attendance and more days in travelling to & from the seat of the Gov^t. He expatiated emphatically on the difference between the feelings & views of the _people_--& the _Governments_ of the States arising from the personal interest & official inducements which must render the latter unfriendly to the Gen^l Gov^t.

M^r Wilson moved that the Salaries of the 1^{st} branch "_be ascertained by the National Legislature_," and be paid out of the Nat^l Treasury.

M^r Madison, thought the members of the Legis^l too much interested to ascertain their own compensation. It w^d be indecent to put their hands into the public purse for the sake of their own pockets.

On this question Ma.s.s. no. Con^t no. N. Y. div^d N. J. ay.

P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. div^d.

On the question for striking out "Nat^l Treasury" as moved by M^r Elseworth.

M^r Hamilton renewed his opposition to it. He pressed the distinction between the State Gov^{ts} & the people. The former w^d be the rivals of the Gen^l Gov^t. The State legislatures ought not therefore to be the paymasters of the latter.

M^r Elseworth. If we are jealous of the State Gov^{ts} they will be so of us. If on going home I tell them we gave the Gen: Gov^t such powers because we c^d not trust you. Will they adopt it, and with^t y^r approbation it is a nullity.[99]

[99] According to Yates, Wilson followed Ellsworth: "Mr. Wilson. I am not for submitting the national government to the approbation of the state legislatures. I know that they and the state officers will oppose it. I am for carrying it to the people of each state."--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_, etc., 153.

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. div^d. N. J. no. Pen^a no.

Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. div^d.[100]

[100] (It appeared that Ma.s.s^{ts} concurred, not because they thought the State Treas^y ought to be subst.i.tuted; but because they thought nothing should be said on the subject, in which case it w^d silently devolve on the Nat^l Treasury to support the National Legislature.)--Madison's Note.

On a question for subst.i.tuting "adequate compensation" in place of "fixt stipends" it was agreed to nem. con. the friends of the latter being willing that the practicability of _fixing_ the compensation should be considered hereafter in forming the details.

It was then moved by M^r Butler that a question be taken on both points jointly; to wit "adequate compensation to be paid out of the Nat^l Treasury." It was objected to as out of order, the parts having been separately decided on. The Presid^t refer^d the question of order to the House, and it was determined to be in order. Con. N. J. Del. M^d N. C.

S. C.--ay.--N. Y. P^a V^a Geo. no.--Ma.s.s. divided. The question on the sentence was then postponed by S. Carolina in right of the State.

Col. Mason moved to insert "twenty-five years of age as a qualification for the members of the 1^{st} branch." He thought it absurd that a man today should not be permitted by the law to make a bargain for himself, and tomorrow should be authorized to manage the affairs of a great nation. It was more extraordinary as every man carried with him in his own experience a scale for measuring the deficiency of young politicians; since he would if interrogated be obliged to declare that his political opinions at the age of 21. were too crude & erroneous to merit an influence on public measures. It had been said that Cong^s had proved a good school for our young men. It might be so for any thing he knew but if it were, he chose that they should bear the expence of their own education.

M^r Wilson was ag^{st} abridging the rights of election in any shape. It was the same thing whether this were done by disqualifying the objects of choice, or the persons chusing. The motion tended to damp the efforts of genius, and of laudable ambition. There was no more reason for incapacitating _youth_ than _age_, where the requisite qualifications were found. Many instances might be mentioned of signal services rendered in high stations to the public before the age of 25: The present M^r Pitt and Lord Bolingbroke were striking instances.

On the question for inserting "25 years of age"

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. div^d. N. J. ay. P^a no.

Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

M^r Ghorum moved to strike out the last member of the 3 Resol: concerning ineligibility of members of the 1^{st} branch to office during the term of their members.h.i.+p & for one year after. He considered it as unnecessary & injurious. It was true abuses had been displayed in G. B. but no one c^d say how far they might have contributed to preserve the due influence of the Gov^t nor what might have ensued in case the contrary theory had been tried.

M^r Butler opposed it. This precaution ag^{st} intrigue was necessary.

He appealed to the example of G. B. where men got into Parl^t that they might get offices for themselves or their friends. This was the source of the corruption that ruined their Gov^t.

M^r King, thought we were refining too much. Such a restriction on the members would discourage merit. It would also give a pretext to the Executive for bad appointments, as he might always plead this as a bar to the choice he wished to have made.

M^r Wilson was ag^{st} fettering elections, and discouraging merit. He suggested also the fatal consequence in time of war, of rendering perhaps the best Commanders ineligible; appealing to our situation during the late war, and indirectly leading to a recollection of the appointment of the Co[~m]ander in Chief out of Congress.[101]

[101] According to Yates, Madison followed Wilson:

"Mr. Madison. Some gentlemen give too much weight and others too little to this subject. If you have no exclusive clause, there may be danger of creating offices or augmenting the stipends of those already created, in order to gratify some members if they were not excluded. Such an instance has fallen within my own observation. I am therefore of opinion, that no office ought to be open to a member, which may be created or augmented while he is in the legislature."--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_, etc., 155. Yates gives the rest of the debate as follows:

"Mr. Mason. It seems as if it was taken for granted, that all offices will be filled by the executive, while I think many will remain in the gift of the legislature. In either case, it is necessary to shut the door against corruption. If otherwise, they may make or multiply offices, in order to fill them. Are gentlemen in earnest when they suppose that this exclusion will prevent the first characters from coming forward? Are we not struck at seeing the luxury and venality which has already crept in among us? If not checked we shall have amba.s.sadors to every petty state in Europe--the little republic of _St. Marino_ not excepted. We must in the present system remove the temptation. I admire many parts of the British const.i.tution and government, but I detest their corruption.--Why has the power of the crown so remarkably increased the last century? A stranger, by reading their laws, would suppose it considerably diminished; and yet, by the sole power of appointing the increased officers of government, corruption pervades every town and village in the kingdom. If such a restriction should abridge the right of election, it is still necessary, as it will prevent the people from ruining themselves; and will not the same causes here produce the same effects? I consider this clause as the corner-stone on which our liberties depend--and if we strike it out we are erecting a fabric for our destruction.

"Mr. Gorham. The corruption of the English government cannot be applied to America. This evil exists there in the venality of their boroughs; but even this corruption has its advantage, as it gives stability to their government. We do not know what the effect would be if members of parliament were excluded from offices. The great bulwark of our liberty is the frequency of elections, and the great danger is the septennial parliaments.

"Mr. Hamilton. In all general questions which become the subjects of discussion, there are always some truths mixed with falsehoods. I confess there is danger where men are capable of holding two offices.

Take mankind in general, they are vicious--their pa.s.sions may be operated upon. We have been taught to reprobate the danger of influence in the British government, without duly reflecting how far it was necessary to support a good government. We have taken up many ideas on trust, and at last, pleased with their own opinions, establish them as undoubted truths. Hume's opinion of the British const.i.tution confirms the remark, that there is always a body of firm patriots, who often shake a corrupt administration. Take mankind as they are, and what are they governed by? Their pa.s.sions. There may be in every government a few choice spirits, who may act from more worthy motives. One great error is that we suppose mankind more honest than they are.

Our prevailing pa.s.sions are ambition and interest; and it will ever be the duty of a wise government to avail itself of those pa.s.sions, in order to make them subservient to the public good--for these ever induce us to action. Perhaps a few men in a state, may, from patriotic motives, or to display their talents, or to reap the advantage of public applause, step forward; but if we adopt the clause, we destroy the motive. I am therefore against all exclusions and refinements, except only in this case; that when a member takes his seat, he should vacate every other office. It is difficult to put any exclusive regulation into effect. We must in some degree submit to the inconvenience."--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_, etc., 155, 156.

Col. Mason was for shutting the door at all events ag^{st} corruption.

He enlarged on the venality and abuses in this particular in G. Britain: and alluded to the multiplicity of foreign Emba.s.sies by Cong^s. The disqualification he regarded as a corner stone in the fabric.

Col. Hamilton, there are inconveniences on both sides. We must take man as we find him, and if we expect him to serve the public must interest his pa.s.sions in doing so. A reliance on pure patriotism had been the source of many of our errors. He thought the remark of M^r Ghorum a just one. It was impossible to say what w^d be the effect in G. B. of such a reform as had been urged. It was known that one of the ablest politicians (M^r Hume) had p.r.o.nounced all that influence on the side of the crown, which went under the name of corruption, an essential part of the weight which maintained the equilibrium of the Const.i.tution.

On M^r Ghorum's Motion for striking out "ineligibility,"

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. div^d. N. J. ay. P^a div^d.

Del. div^d. Mar^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. G^a ay.

Adj^d.

SAt.u.r.dAY JUNE 23. IN CONVENTION

The 3^d Resol: resumed.

On Question yesterday postponed by S. Carol: for agreeing to the whole sentence "for allowing an adequate compensation to be paid out of the _Treasury of the U. States_"

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. Pen^a ay. Del. no.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. divided. So the question was lost, & the sentence not inserted:

Gen^l Pinkney moves to strike out the ineligibility of members of the 1^{st} branch to offices established "by a particular State." He argued from the inconveniency to which such a restriction would expose both the members of the 1^{st} branch, and the States wis.h.i.+ng for their services; & from the smallness of the object to be attained by the restriction.

It w^d seem from the ideas of some that we are erecting a Kingdom to be divided ag^{st} itself,[102] he disapproved such a fetter on the Legislature.

[102] According to Yates Wilson followed Pinckney: "Mr. Wilson. I perceive that some gentlemen are of opinion to give a bias in favor of state governments. This question ought to stand on the same footing."--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_, etc., 157.

M^r Sherman seconds the motion. It w^d seem that we are erecting a Kingdom at war with itself. The Legislature ought not to [be] fettered in such a case. On the question

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. M^d div^d.

Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison renewed his motion yesterday made & waved to render the members of the 1^{st} branch "ineligible during their term of service, & for one year after--to such offices only as should be established, or the emoluments thereof augmented, by the Legislature of the U. States during the time of their being members." He supposed that the unnecessary creation of offices, and increase of salaries, were the evils most experienced, & that if the door was shut ag^{st} them: it might properly be left open for the appoint^t of members to other offices as an encouragem^t to the Legislative service.

M^r Alex: Martin[103] seconded the Motion.

[103] "Mr. Martin was lately Governor of North Carolina, which office he filled with credit. He is a man of sense, and undoubtedly is a good politician, but he is not formed to s.h.i.+ne in public debate, being no speaker. Mr. Martin was once a Colonel in the American Army, but proved unfit for the field. He is about 40 years of age."--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 332.

M^r Butler. The amend^t does not go far eno. & w^d be easily evaded.