Sick In The Head: Conversations About Life And Comedy Part 10

Most of the important breaks and rewarding experiences in my career can be directly traced to Garry Shandling. Let me run through it quickly here for you: One of the first jobs I got as a writer was writing jokes for the Grammys for Garry Shandling in 1990. After that, he agreed to do a cameo on the pilot of The Ben Stiller Show, and I've always believed that those celebrity cameos, in that first episode, were one of the main reasons the show eventually got picked up. Then, when the show was canceled, Garry hired me to be a writer at The Larry Sanders Show. Then, one day at The Larry Sanders Show, Garry walked into the writers' room and, without even asking me, said, "Judd, you're going to direct the next episode." And I did.

There is no one who has taught me more or been kinder to me in this comedy world than Garry Shandling. As a kid, my only dream was to be a comedian. I never thought about being a writer. Garry was the first person who ever sat me down and said, "Look, this is what a story is about. This is how you write in this format." He talked a lot about how the key was to try to get to the emotional core or the truth of each character, which I had never heard before. He taught me that comedy is about truth and revealing yourself, and these are all lessons I apply every day in my work. In fact, when we started Freaks and Geeks, I always thought of it like this: Freaks and Geeks is The Larry Sanders Show if The Larry Sanders Show was about a bunch of kids in high school.

Judd Apatow: Who made you the man you are today?

Garry Shandling: I can't discuss that without having a s.h.i.+tload of coffee first.

Judd: To get it all out? Oh, he's spilling it. He spilled it already.

Garry: See, this is why I don't eat in therapy. Do you ever eat?

Judd: The second you said, "That's why I don't eat in therapy," I thought, Wait. Can you? Because I would definitely do that.

Garry: I know I've had sessions where I've said, "You should think about having at least a salad bar," to the therapist. Seriously, though, I don't know who made me the man I am except to say what I feel in my heart relative to Roy London.

Judd: Yeah.

Garry: Roy influenced me gigantically when I was about twenty-seven years old and I stumbled into his acting cla.s.s. Instead of talking about acting, we ended up talking about the world and people. Those conversations are what gave me the confidence to move on. Up until then, I was a confused young man who was writing for Sanford and Son.

Judd: Who were you best at writing for? Which character?

Garry: That's a good question. Lamont. (Laughs) And Aunt Esther. The first script I ever wrote was Ah Chew opens up a Chinese restaurant with Fred. And then the health department closes it down.

Judd: The Asian character's name was Ah Chew?

Garry: Well, this was when political correctness was required nowhere in the script.

Judd: Do you think the world was better when you could name a character Ah Chew?

Garry: I cannot judge that right now. Even just alone with you, I cannot judge that. But I will say, the two producers on that show, Saul Turteltaub and Bernie Orenstein, taught me a lot. When I used to turn in my script, they'd go, "You don't have an ending," and I realized, "Oh, the writer actually is supposed to do the whole script." I was a.s.signed to write one in which Fred and Lamont went camping for the whole half hour, and then had to- Judd: There's nothing not racist in that premise.

Garry: Well, I didn't know how to make it funny unless someone caught fire, and that certainly wasn't an option. Nor was I equipped, as a younger man, to write the father-son emotionality that they were looking for at the end-so they had to help me. I remember I wrote three of those scripts in one season and then I went to the story editor Ted Bergman, who really helped me, and said, "How do you write fifteen more? Or seasons more?" And he looked at me and said, "Burnt out at twenty-six, huh?" When I told my therapist about this, he said, "No, you might be bored." And it shocked me, because I never knew that that could be my own opinion. That's when I turned to doing stand-up and looking at other types of television and what I could do that was different.

Judd: So your shrink made you the man you are today.

Garry: She really did help me. Because I didn't think I had the right to be bored. You're just so grateful to have this job. Who am I to be bored by writing for Welcome Back, Kotter and all these great shows?

Judd: That's what we do: We instantly go to guilt and shame. I'm not allowed to have a feeling about this. I should just appreciate it and shut the f.u.c.k up. Right?

Garry: That's totally right.

Judd: In all situations, I go straight to that feeling. Just shut up.

Garry: Who were your early mentors?

Judd: Well, my grandfather Bobby Shad was this guy who produced Sarah Vaughan and Lightnin' Hopkins and Charlie Parker and Janis Joplin. He raised money when he was a kid-he was a poor kid-and would pay jazz musicians to let him record them and then he would make records and sell them in stores. Eventually, he started his own label, in the forties, and then- Garry: You kind of saw the whole creative process right there.

Judd: Yeah, that's what I thought. I remember feeling like, Oh, you can just do it. You can just start. But I had no musical abilities. I like music, but I just-I tried to play guitar as a kid and I couldn't. What I liked was comedy. When I was a kid I said, "I want to know how they do it." So I started this show for my high school radio station, interviewing comedians. I interviewed you, Garry, on the phone from Las Vegas and you had just hosted The Tonight Show for the first time- Garry: It was the only interview I could get.

Judd: (Laughs) Here was this fifteen-year-old calling you on the phone, and you were very nice and funny. I asked you what your plans were for your career, and you basically laid out everything you would go on to do. You said, "I'd like to do a show, probably a sitcom, probably something personal, I'd like to play myself, I might play myself," and this was in 1984.

Garry: That's right. You remind me of two or three things. One, for some reason, is that so many of the comedians and comedy writers I know all pretended like they had radio shows, talking into their tape recorders or whatever when they were kids-it seems to be a common theme. I used to do that, too, but I never actually called anyone and interviewed them. You've always had bigger b.a.l.l.s than most kids in comedy. The second thing is, I was a late bloomer. I was confused until I was twenty-seven and, as I said, started to get into that Roy London mentality. That's when I realized I wanted to take the self-discovery path. I figured that would fit naturally into whatever project I felt was right, where I could continue to search this human condition thing we always talk about-because the human condition is hilariously awful.

Judd: I never thought about any of those things until I worked for you. I didn't think in terms of the human story. You started thinking about it from Roy, and then I worked for you, and then you started talking to me about it, and- Garry: Yeah, this is the big bang of it. By the way, my own belief is that I know how the big bang started-everyone's confused-which is simply that s.h.i.+t happens.

Judd: Just random?

Garry: It may not be random, but "s.h.i.+t happens" is what we end up writing.

Judd: We're getting into chaos theory right now.

Garry: When we were doing Larry Sanders, it was all about life and the question of self and what you were bringing to it.

Judd: You always used to say that Sanders was about people who love each other, but show business gets in the way.

Garry: And what people are always covering up-the tension between what they're covering emotionally in life and what's really going on inside them. What you really want to write is what they're covering; otherwise you end up writing the exposition-which is just words. That's what the struggle was in the writers' room, in a nutsh.e.l.l: getting people not to write just words.

Judd: I remember you said once that it's very rare that anyone says what they actually feel, that we're always trying to project on to other people, hiding our true motivations and feelings, and when you finally tell someone how you feel about something, it's a big deal. As a kid, watching TV, I think I was learning all those things without even realizing it. I watched M*A*S*H, All in the Family, Taxi-you know, all the James L. Brooks shows-and those are all human comedies. I didn't understand that what I liked about them was seeing normal people with their daily struggles, trying to be good people in spite of all of the obstacles that are in their way, trying to find connection. That's what I enjoyed the most, but I didn't understand how it was made and I didn't understand how I would get there, until I worked with you at The Larry Sanders Show.

Garry: There's a way I mentor that's a bit on the Zen side, which is a little hard to understand because it happens in the writers' room. Let's just talk about you, Judd, okay? You, clearly, had youth and a point of view and energy and were really funny, and so what I wanted from you was whatever was pure that was coming out of you. The same pure thing will work for The Larry Sanders Show, or it will work for This Is 40-it's just got to be pure. What I'm doing in the writers' room is trying to sense whether that's organic or not, trying to help people find themselves. That's the lab we were in. And it turned out that we were filming it. Is that fair?

Judd: Yeah. I would notice things that were happening in your life, or things that you were thinking about, would make their way on the show. After The Larry Sanders Show, when I did Freaks and Geeks with Paul Feig, it was so personal to Paul. When we were making that show, I was always nervous about-what's the tone of this show? And how can you do it really funny? And in my head I always thought, You know what this is? It's a spinoff of The Larry Sanders Show. If we did Larry Sanders in high school, it would be this. That was always my secret thought.

Garry: Whenever you turn to what the organic state of any given character is, the fears and the anger and the struggle, you're going to get conflict and a lot of hilarious stuff.

Judd: It also led me to realize that certain stories can be very small, but if you're incredibly honest about them, there's so much to do there. Take Knocked Up, for example. This is how we came up with that idea: Seth Rogen was pitching me a big science fiction movie, and I said, "Seth, you know, you could stand there and it would be interesting. In 40-Year-Old Virgin, you're just in a stockroom and you're interesting. You can do a whole movie where you get a girl pregnant and I would watch to see how that works."

Garry: That's right.

Judd: We were all going, "Oh, maybe we should do that," but we were just joking around and then we realized, "Wait, maybe that actually is enough."

Garry: You allow the actor to be, as opposed to do. People are fascinating. They don't really need to do much.

Judd: I've always thought that mentoring comes from being in a place where you want to learn. When you hired me at The Larry Sanders Show, you said, "Oh my G.o.d, you're going to learn so much." You didn't say, "You're going to be so helpful to me." You said, "You're going to learn so much." And I took that seriously. I'm here to make as much of a contribution as I can, but it's just as important for me to take as much from it as I can. Some writers struggled with this because it was all ego, like, What can I get on the show? Does Garry like me? Does Garry like my scripts? They didn't approach it like, I'm going to get my own show by observing this process and learning from what Garry's doing. I had fun because I didn't feel that pressure. It wasn't ego-driven. It was, Hopefully I can get some jokes in, but I just got to watch Garry re-outline that script. I knew that watching was helping me.

Garry: That's the way I was when I was just starting out. I was really open to being taught. When I see talent, I want them to be all they can be. I really want to help-and by doing so, I am helped as well. Whenever I mentor, I notice I'm learning something myself. You are right that there were writers who were not willing to look deeper inside themselves to get the material we were talking about. It's like being at a therapist and saying, "No. No more sessions." Whereas you would keep going back in the room and rewriting until you just, I could see how successful you would be because that's what it takes. It's just, keep reworking and reworking-and man, you listened and you went back in and you ended up, of course, contributing enormously. I don't know, I'm just interested in life and teaching. I care.

Judd: The bar was so high on that show, it was fun just to try to meet it. But I think for some people-when you struggle to get there, your self-esteem collapses. If you write a bad script and someone calls you out on it, you either go, "How can I make it better?" or you get mad about it.

Garry: You get defensive.

Judd: You get defensive. But I always thought, Oh, this is fun. The quest to make you happy, I enjoyed. It's fascinating because I've had the same experience with Lena Dunham on Girls-here is a writer who is running a show, who stars in the show, and we know, based on how much work we get done each week, how much sleep Lena gets, and how sane she can be based on how much she's sleeping or how stressed she is about upcoming episodes. It's a very similar type of experience. And I think Lena benefits from my experience on The Larry Sanders Show in some ways because, for six years, I got to watch how the show was made-what helped you, and what didn't. So when we built her show and figured out how to staff it and how to write it and how to pace ourselves, I was able to tell her about what happened at The Larry Sanders Show and maybe help her do it correctly.

Garry: It sounds like you are saying that it's everything in the moment. On any given day, you can see everything that Lena brings to the stage, to the writers' room, that day. So you start there and try to take her somewhere.

Judd: Yeah. It's Lena's show, and we're all there to help her. Some weeks she may love our ideas, she may love our whole script. Other weeks, we're just trying to feed her so she gets excited and goes off and writes a script without us.

Garry: So it's not a discussion of ego, it's actually a discussion of someone's emotional life and where they are in the moment, which is incredibly usable for the writing and the shooting of the episode itself. That's what we were teaching in the room at Larry Sanders: The answer isn't on this piece of paper. It's in this s.p.a.ce right here.

Judd: Her insecurity about being a writer is what her show's about, really-a lot like Larry's insecurity about being a talk show host. The battle in the writers' room, on some level, has all the same issues of the battle of trying to be a writer in New York.

Garry: So, as an example, if a writer came in and got defensive about a script he was going to rewrite for Larry Sanders, we might in fact find a scene where Larry's saying, "You know, Phil's just-he doesn't want to rewrite these jokes, he's just fighting with me." Instead of getting caught up in this real-life theater that's going on in the room, observe it. Because that may be what goes on the paper in the end.

Judd: It all becomes fodder for the show.

Garry: Translating experience to paper. That's so hard to teach, isn't it?

This interview was conducted by Mike Sager and originally appeared in Esquire in October 2014.

HAROLD RAMIS.

(2005).

Harold Ramis was the original c.o.c.ky nerd. He was the guy, more than anyone else in this book, whom I secretly thought I could be like. He was tall and lanky and goofy, the guy standing next to Bill Murray who was, in his own quiet way, every bit as funny as Bill Murray. Harold Ramis had a hand in almost everything of note that happened in comedy over the last few decades. He wrote for Playboy and the National Lampoon; he was the first head writer for SCTV, as well as one of its stars; he co-wrote Animal House, Stripes, Meatb.a.l.l.s, and Ghostbusters (which he also starred in); he directed National Lampoon's Vacation, Ghostbusters, a.n.a.lyze This, and G.o.d, the man co-wrote and directed Groundhog Day, which is in the running for greatest comedy of all time. Groundhog Day is hilarious and spiritually deep, a perfect encapsulation of the Ramis Worldview, and definitely one of those movies that people will be watching in a thousand years-if people are still here in a thousand years.

I first interviewed Harold when I was in high school, and he was thirty-nine years old, about to make Ghostbusters. "Why do you think so many people from Second City and National Lampoon have become famous in the field of comedy?" I asked, as if there was an easy way to answer this. And he very patiently said, "The same reason that all the doctors who graduated college when I graduated college are now taking over the medical profession. It's our time, you know. Second City is great training. I won't deny that it's a great way to learn how to do comedy, but as far as us all coming into prominence, you know-it's gonna happen to our generation soon. We'll be the old guys."

I was lucky enough to work with Harold on the film Year One, in 2009. Everyone who was involved in that movie was thrilled to have a reason to be a.s.sociated with him and to have a chance to download his thoughts about life and his legendary career. Harold was very interested in Buddhism, and he had taken everything he liked about the religion and condensed it onto one folded piece of paper. He gave me a copy of it on the set of Year One, and I still have it at home. He once said to me, "Life is ridiculous, so why not be a good guy?" That may be the only religion I have to this day.

Judd Apatow: When you look back, not in terms of quality but in terms of a good time, what movie do you look back on and say, "That's the one we had a great time making"?

Harold Ramis: The good-time movie for me has been every single one of them, without exception. I don't say that as a Pollyanna, because there have been nightmare situations. I thrive on disaster. I'm very excited when things go wrong. I'm really attracted to outlandish and excessive human behavior. Any experience with Bill Murray is better than any other experience because he does things no one you know would ever do. Every ride with Bill is a potential adventure. I say this with love and considerable distance, because I don't talk to him and I don't see him, but the memories of doing those films with him or even doing a film like Vacation-it's kind of the best of all possible worlds for a social person, which I am, because you a.s.semble everyone you like, and if you're lucky you pick a beautiful place to make a movie or a real interesting place, and then you're with them for months with nothing else to do but focus on the work. It's like an excuse: "Can't drive the kids to school. Can't help you with your homework. I'm working." I know a director, Marty Brest-even when he was shooting in L.A., he'd move out of his house. He'd just say to his wife, "I'm not going to be any use to you anyway while I'm making this movie."

Judd: My wife is so onto that. She considers all work play. If I'm not working and I say, "I'd like to go to the movies with my friends," she's like, "You goof off with your friends all day long."

Harold: I had the same thing with my first wife. I said to her, "I'm working so hard for you....Blah, blah, blah...You don't appreciate..." She said, "You love your work. Don't ever claim this is hard for you."

Judd: What was the first movie you directed?

Harold: Caddyshack.

Judd: So you started at a very low level.

Harold: It was a low level. We were already kind of corrupted by the initial success of Animal House, which I'd written. I had been professionalized for ten years before Animal House. I'd been paid for writing and performing starting in 1968. So 1978 was when Animal House came out, and I felt I could always support myself. I was through the job-struggle period, and things were happening just as I thought they should. I went from improv comedy on the stage to doing television stuff, and then the treatment for Animal House gets bought, the movie gets made, and it's a huge hit. Producers literally waited outside screenings to meet me, Doug Kenney, and Chris Miller, and they asked, "What do you guys want to do next?" It was like a dream. So I said, "I want to direct the next thing I write." Jon Peters, best known as the hairdresser who married Barbra Streisand and a fine producer in his own right, looked at me and said, "You look like a director." I was wearing a safari jacket and aviator gla.s.ses at the time.

Judd: Did you guys all get money from Animal House, or did you all get screwed?

Harold: Well, we didn't get rich. I got $2,500 for the treatments, and Chris, Doug, and I split $30,000 for the final product, $10,000 apiece. They slipped me another two grand because I did the final polish. We shared five net points of the movie, 1.6 each. There were no gross players in the film, and it was relatively low budget. When the movie came out, we did a quick calculation and thought, "We're going to make some money." I think we made in the under-$500,000 range, but in 1978 that seemed like a lot of money. I literally went to the bank in Santa Monica with the review and bought a house.

Judd: Tell me a little about Doug Kenney, who is a National Lampoon legend, and also a little bit about your thoughts on having a group of people that's doing a lot of work together but separates as the years pa.s.s. What was that social world like for those people?

Harold: Having Second City as my first professional experience was great. Second City is so different from stand-up. In the world of stand-up you really talk about killing, not just killing the audience but killing the other comedian. It's a compet.i.tion every night. You want to be better than anyone else. But the whole thrust of Second City is to focus on making everyone else look good because in that process we all look good. It's more than collaborative. Your life onstage depends on other people and on developing techniques for creating cooperative work. We have rules, guidelines, games, and techniques that teach that. It fosters a spirit that exists to this day. Anyone who's ever worked at Second City can run into any other generation of Second City players, and they instantly share a language and an approach to their work. John Belus.h.i.+ got hired from Second City. We were in a show together, and he got hired to do National Lampoon. They did a big Woodstock music festival parody called Lemmings-it was a big breakout show for John. Chevy Chase and Christopher Guest were discovered in that show. John was able to write his own ticket at the Lampoon, and when the Lampoon wanted to do a nationally distributed radio show, they let John be the producer. John brought me, Gilda Radner, Bill Murray, Brian Murray, and Joe Flaherty from Second City. We all moved to New York and had this great, cohesive Second City spirit. Doug Kenney was a really sweet guy, a hippie dropout from Harvard that started the National Lampoon and then took a year off to live in a teepee in Martha's Vineyard. He'd written a book called Teenage Commies from Outer s.p.a.ce, and he was their resident adolescence and p.u.b.erty expert. He did the High School Yearbook. He did "First Lay Comics" and "First High Comics." So we did a stage show from Lampoon, John, Gilda, me, Bill, Brian, Joe. We took it on the road, then we did the Radio Hour for a while, and then Ivan Reitman saw us perform in Toronto. He wanted to do a movie with the Lampoon, so I said, "What about a college movie?" He said, "Who do you want to work with at the Lampoon?" I thought Doug was the smartest, funniest, nicest guy, so Doug and I teamed up, and then later we brought in Chris Miller. Doug was always really elegant. He wanted to be Cary Grant. He wanted to be Chevy Chase, basically, but he didn't have the performing chops. He was as smart as could be. Doug used to do a thing where he would stand at my bookcase in my house, close his eyes, pick a book, randomly flip to a page, start reading from that page, and at some point start improvising. You wouldn't know where the book ended and Doug's improv began. He could do it with any book on the shelf, just his little parlor trick.

Judd: So those were the salad days, socially, for that group? It wasn't like, "Oh, no, the group broke up because..."?

Harold: Not then. After Animal House was successful, Doug and I joined with Brian Murray and wrote Caddyshack. Doug produced it, I directed it, and Brian acted in it. We were so arrogant and deluded that we thought Caddyshack would be as big as Animal House, but to have your first movie be, what was then, the biggest comedy ever sets the bar a little high. Doug was already troubled, already wrestling with self-esteem issues because of family problems and substance abuse issues. We had a horrific press conference for Caddyshack. It was one of the worst public events I've ever attended, and it was kind of my fault. I said, "Wouldn't it be great to get Chevy, Bill Murray, Rodney Dangerfield, and Ted Knight on the stage to talk to the press?" Well, they scheduled it at nine-thirty in the morning. None of those four had ever been up at nine-thirty in the morning. Doug showed up at the press conference drunk, stoned, c.o.ked up, and sleepless. He hadn't gone to bed the night before. Chevy was rude to the press. Rodney was totally out of it. Bill was crude and off-putting, and the press was hostile. At one point, Doug stands up and tells them all to f.u.c.k themselves, and then pa.s.ses out at the table. Chevy concludes his last TV interview of the day with Brian Linehan from Toronto, and Brian says, "Chevy, what would you say about so-and-so?" Chevy says, "What would I say? Can I say, 'f.u.c.k you, Brian'? Could I just say, 'f.u.c.k you'?" This is a televised interview. The next day someone sends me a clipping that says, "If this is the new Hollywood, let's have the old Hollywood back." So Doug was depressed, and I get a call-I don't know why I'm being so self-revealing. Doug says, "I'm going to Hawaii with Chevy for two weeks to clean up." You do not go anywhere with Chevy to clean up. I thought, This is a potential disaster. I cannot go on this trip. Chevy came back. Doug did not. Doug fell from a high place on the island of Kauai, and his body was found a couple of days later. It was beyond tragic. I'd been in a room with this guy eight hours a day for two movies. He's like my brother and best friend. And he's much loved by a great number of people. It was sobering, but in a way it became like a Rorschach test for each member of our group. Some thought suicide: Doug was a victim of his own substance abuse, his own depression, whatever. Some thought accident: He was careless. It was just fate, an existential accident. Others thought he was murdered by drug dealers on Kauai. There was no evidence for any of it. It just depends on how you see the world. We eventually concluded that Doug slipped while looking for a place to jump. Same with John Belus.h.i.+. John died two years later of an administered overdose, but it's not suicide when you let a stranger shoot you up and you don't know what's in the needle. If you've even gotten to the point of putting a needle in your body, it's a form of suicide. John Belus.h.i.+-as a nice segue from Doug Kenney, just to really perk up your morning-was pulled twice from a burning bed. If it happens once, it's kind of a wake-up call. If it happens twice, you start thinking, Maybe I have a problem.

Judd: You always hear that when Caddyshack was being made everybody was on drugs and partying during the shooting.

Harold: Everyone in the world of that age was on drugs and partying. It was the eighties in Florida. There were hotels literally built of pressed cocaine. They had so much cocaine, they just used it as construction material.

Judd: I'm always fascinated when you hear about people being on something when they're making Sat.u.r.day Night Live. I think we got drunk once in the Larry Sanders writers' room, and then just went home and wrote nothing. So I'm just fascinated.

Harold: Well, one of the miracles of substance abuse-when you use something enough, it eventually loses its effect, whatever it is. That's why addicts have to take more and more of it to get high. You're not even high anymore. Eventually, John Belus.h.i.+-people would come up to him at parties and just hand him drugs because they thought that was the way to John's heart. They'd give him a little gram bottle of cocaine and go, "John, you want some c.o.ke?" He'd go, "Yeah, the whole bottle." You become a glutton. It's a form of gluttony. If you're high all the time, that becomes your sober state. Eventually, all your judgments become relative to that state. That was the miracle of getting sober for me. It's not different. It's the same. I have the same problems, urges, desires, ideas, and thoughts. I don't need to be high. Eventually getting high, I realized, just made me sick. I was sick.

Judd: How does it feel-I would a.s.sume you would become numb to it at some point-to have a body of work that...in a way, I guess it's kind of like being the Beatles. Does it get boring dealing with the impact of your body of work on people, how much it means to people? Can you feel that anymore?

Harold: Grandiosity is the curse of what we do. There's a great rabbinical motto that says you start each day with a note in each pocket. One note says, "The world was created for you today," and the other note says, "I'm a speck of dust in a meaningless universe," and you have to balance both things. I once did a public talk and told them that story, and I said, "I literally have a note in each pocket." I took one out and said, "This one says, 'You're great,' and this one says, 'You're great.'" The culture is what it is. I'm as much a product of our culture as I am a partic.i.p.ant in it. It's very gratifying on a personal level to know that people responded so much and cherish those films. Any of us who make films or work in any of the arts aspire to have a dialogue with the culture and with our audience. Our audience could be an audience of one, like when you grab your best friend and say, "Read this. What do you think?" Our little hearts pound as our friends read our poem, look at our painting, or read our script. If they like it, our spirits soar. It's great. We can get grandiose from the approval of very few people.

Judd: If you look at the entire generation of people you began with, it seems that very few of them have continued to work at a high level. There are a lot of people that crashed, or their work crashed. Then you look at other people....Larry Gelbart is still a great writer after fifty years. Do you attribute that to anything?

Harold: What eventually happens in all our lives is that we're faced with developmental challenges. It's always, "Now what?" We all start to work for certain reasons, and I think most guys in the room would recognize that we work to meet girls. The last line of Caddyshack is, "Hey! We're all going to get laid!" It was an improvised line I can't even believe I edited into the movie. Getting laid is just a metaphor for getting all the things we're supposed to want when we're adolescent. We want to be rich, we want power, we want to be attractive to people, and we want all the perks of success. We'll leave out of the discussion what happens when you don't get it. But let's say you're Chevy Chase and you do get it. You're getting all the perks, people offer you money, women are throwing themselves at you, and you're famous. Now what? Now it becomes a measure of character, growth, and development. Who do you want to be from that point on? You're rich and famous, so what do you have to say? You've got the stage. You're on it. You're there. Now what? Once you've got people's attention, what do you want to do with it? Growth is hard. I've said this to Chevy. I see him. We b.u.mp into each other every couple of years. A few years ago, twenty years after Vacation, and after he's already done Vegas Vacation, he says, "We've got to do something together." I said, "Well, what are you thinking?" and he says, "'Swiss Family Griswold.'" My first thought is, Do I need to do another Vacation movie? Does he need to do another Vacation movie? So I said, "Maybe it would be better to do something you're actually interested in, like an issue in your life." When you're almost sixty years old there's got to be something more going on. What are the challenges of being a grown-up in the world? Start with something that's important or interesting to you, and that's what you make movies out of. It's like the rat in the experiment that just keeps going back and hitting the lever to get the same reward each time. It's all about growth and development. I've tried to find meaning or create meaning in each of the films, a meaning that's specific to me at that time in my life. All I can address is the sincerity and the meaningfulness for me. If I do a movie like Bedazzled, as broad as that is, or Multiplicity, or any of those films, I'm really examining those aspects of life that are portrayed in the film. If I had to do a Vegas film, I would be looking for what Vegas says about society. What does it mean to me? What does it say about the addiction to gambling? What does it represent? Everything means something, intended or not. Every story tells a big subtextual story. It's all rich. It's all subject to interpretation. That's the fun, isn't it? When we see generic work that has only one interpretation, so what? You might as well stay at home and watch another rerun of Friends than see another romantic comedy. And I don't mean to be down on romantic comedy.

Judd: Unless the guy's never had s.e.x for forty years.

Harold: That was a good one, though. That transcended romantic comedy.

Judd: You talk about how you enjoy the disasters and the difficult moments. I'm not like that. I usually end up on my back in surgery when something like that happens. I don't get that, the enjoying-the-pain part. But maybe that's because I'm in pain the whole time, and you're not. When it gets even worse, it's like, Can't I just have my low-level hum of stress and suffering as we do this? When you think of the worst fights, or the worst kind of conflict making a film with Bill Murray, what's the one that comes to mind, like, Wow, that was really ugly?

Harold: As my first job out of college, I worked in a mental inst.i.tution for seven months. I learned how to deflect insanity, or how to deal with it, and how to speak to schizophrenics, catatonics, paranoids, and suicidal people. It sounds funny, but it really expanded my tolerance for the extremes of human behavior, which turns out to be great training for working with actors. They have an incredibly hard job, and most of them are already a little bent. That's why they're actors in the first place. They have a desperate need to get out there and reveal something about themselves. Even as a teenager, you're in a room full of people and someone is acting out. G.o.d, that's interesting, isn't it? It's always the person who's in big trouble. The rest of the cla.s.s sits there and goes, "Wow! Did you hear what he said to the teacher? That was great!" We all wish we'd said it, and we're fascinated by the result: "He's going to get in trouble!" Then you meet someone like Bill, who says things to people you can't believe. Like a sociologist or a psychologist, you watch for the impact: "G.o.d, you can say that and get away with it?" I've seen a total stranger come up to Bill on the street in New York: "Bill, love you on Sat.u.r.day Night!" He says, "You motherf.u.c.ker, I'm going to bite your nose!" He wrestles him to the ground-total stranger-and bites his nose. I guess you can do that.

Judd: What is that? Is he having fun, or is he mad? Does it make it impossible to maintain a relations.h.i.+p with somebody like that?

Harold: It keeps you constantly alive to possibility. Anything can happen here. It's great. It kind of frees your imagination. Actors are nothing if not self-revealing or at least self-presenting. It's kind of remarkable. It almost seems like a cliche to say comedy comes from pain, but real comedy is connected to the deep pain and anguish we all feel. I worked with Robin Williams on an obscure film called Club Paradise. Peter O'Toole, Jimmy Cliff, and Twiggy are in it. It's a wonderful mess, but it's a wonderful movie in a lot of ways. Robin is one of the most deeply melancholy people you'll ever meet. You can just see it all over him. It's what makes him so human, and I love and respect him. Deep down, Bill is as serious as a person could be. He's raging, angry, and full of grief and unresolved emotions. He's volcanic. Comedy gives them a place to work out ideas and entertain-and these guys love to entertain-but they want you to know that they feel. I think that's part of it. You go see Robin Williams do stand-up, and you can't get more laughs than that. I've been onstage. I know what it feels like to have those waves of laughter. It's like being bathed in love. Once you've had it, it's like a drug. It wears off, and then you need something more. I want the audience to feel something more than that. I want them to feel my pain.

Judd: You always hear stories of conflict during Groundhog Day, but was there any conflict trying to rein Bill in and focus his energy?

Harold: Never a creative problem. Bill kind of pa.s.sive-aggressively takes his anger out on the production itself, but never me. I'm too calm. I don't offer him anything to go after. He would go after the producers, or the costumes....Whoever was around had to take it from him. Or he'd go back and trash his motor home. I'd say, "Well, now you've trashed your motor home. Good idea." No one fights with me. I'm just a detached observer of this extreme behavior. One time, we were shooting Vacation, and it was 110 degrees in Arcadia. We're shooting a scene where Chevy and his family have arrived at the amus.e.m.e.nt park, Wally World. They park a mile away so they can be the first ones out at the end of the day. They run across the parking lot to the tune of Chariots of Fire in a slow-motion shot. It's 110, and the pavement's about 130 because it's been sunny all day in Arcadia. Everyone's really angry. Anthony Michael Hall gets heatstroke and has to go to the hospital. We continue to shoot with Chevy, and he's really irritated because it's so hot, and he kind of blows a take. He's loading luggage on top of the station wagon, and he's holding this duffle bag. He screwed up, and he's really mad. I'm sitting in my chair, and I think, He's going to throw that bag at something. I see him look to his left. There's a light stand. I know he's processing, I can't throw it at the light. There's the sound cart. I can't throw it at the Nagra [a professional audio recorder]. I can't throw it at the camera. Then he looks at me, and I go, He's going to throw that bag at me. All this takes place in a split second, and of course, he throws the bag. I was so ready that I just put my foot up and knocked it to the ground. Then I say, "Come here," and I take him away from the set, but not so far that everyone won't hear us. This is my opportunity. The whole crew can hear. I say, "You f.u.c.king a.s.shole, everyone's been out here all day. The crew's been out here longer than you have. They've been here since six in the morning. We're all tired, and we're all hot, so if you can't control yourself, why don't you..." Blah, blah, blah. So the crew is ready to applaud me. I've both cooled Chevy and made allies with the crew. So I try to turn adversity into something positive.

Judd: At what time in your life did you get acquainted with or interested in Buddhism? It seems like it influences your approach.

Harold: My best friend in college, we went to San Francisco together and graduated college in '66. The word hippie had not been coined yet. We called ourselves freaks and beatniks. We went to San Francisco. The Haight-Ashbury was flowering. Jimi Hendrix was playing, the Grateful Dead, Janis Joplin, Big Brother and the Holding Company, Jefferson Airplane, the whole thing. My roommate, David Cohen, was really stunned by it. We were both really powerfully affected by this radical energy that was going on. It was political, cultural, consciousness, religious...it was everything. David went back to San Francisco. He'd been in four years of psychoa.n.a.lysis-all through college-formal, Freudian psychoa.n.a.lysis. So when he got to San Francisco he made a methodical investigation of all the new religious and spiritual movements, from bioenergetics to yoga. He moved systematically through all these movements and finally came to the San Francisco Zen Center. Zen Buddhism is the cleanest, sparest, most rigorous religious practice there is. You sit for forty minutes in an extremely painful cross-legged position trying to keep your mind centered and focused. He became a full-fledged Zen monk and finally a Zen priest. He worked his way up through the Zen Center and stayed there more than twenty years. I so admired his practice and this amazing calm it brought to him. I started reading Buddhism and thinking about it. I don't claim to be Buddhist. I'm too lazy. Then I met my wife. She'd spent her college years in a Buddhist meditation center in L.A., and her mother lived for thirty years in a Buddhist meditation center. Everything I'd heard and read about it so impressed me. I grew up Jewish, and then I found out that American Buddhists are less than five percent of the population, but thirty percent of them are Jews. It's kind of an amazing statistic. It fit nicely with the Talmudic approach to life, which I'd been evolving. I'm so lazy that I just did a very superficial investigation of Buddhism and distilled it down to something the size of a Chinese takeout menu. It's literally that size. It's threefold, and I call it the "Five-Minute Buddhist." It reminds me how to think-not what to think, but how to think. It's a good response to existentialism, which is a psychology I embrace. There's an actual school of existential psychology-a discipline-and that's the one that makes the most sense to me. I wear Buddhist meditation beads. As Tony Hendra says in Spinal Tap, "It's an affectation."

Judd: As someone who is an existentialist with a dash of Buddhism, if that's your philosophy, you seem like a serene, happy person. How have you taken the darkest philosophy there is and found peace for yourself?