The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 40

M^r Langdon thought there was great weight in the argument of M^r Luther Martin, and that the proposition subst.i.tuted by M^r Gov^r Morris would excite a dangerous opposition to the plan.

M^r Gov^r Morris thought on the contrary that the small States would be pleased with the regulation, as it holds up the idea of dismembering the large States.

M^r Butler. If new States were to be erected without the consent of the dismembered States, nothing but confusion would ensue. Whenever taxes should press on the people, demagogues would set up their schemes of new States.

Doc^r Johnson agreed in general with the ideas of M^r Sherman, but was afraid that as the clause stood, Vermont would be subjected to N. York, contrary to the faith pledged by Congress. He was of opinion that Vermont ought to be compelled to come into the Union.

M^r Langdon said his objections were connected with the case of Vermont.

If they are not taken in, & remain exempt from taxes, it would prove of great injury to N. Hamps.h.i.+re and the other neighbouring States.

M^r d.i.c.kinson hoped the article would not be agreed to. He dwelt on the impropriety of requiring the small States to secure the large ones in their extensive claims of territory.

M^r Wilson. When the _majority_ of a State wish to divide they can do so. The aim of those in opposition to the article, he perceived was that the Gen^l Government should abet the _minority_, & by that means divide a State against its own consent.

M^r Gov^r Morris. If the forced division of the States is the object of the new system, and is to be pointed ag^{st} one or two States, he expected the Gentlemen from these would pretty quickly leave us.

Adjourned.

THURSDAY AUGUST 30TH 1787. IN CONVENTION

Art XVII resumed for a question on it as amended by M^r Gov^r Morris's subst.i.tutes.

M^r Carrol moved to strike out so much of the article as requires the consent of the State to its being divided. He was aware that the object of this prerequisite might be to prevent domestic disturbances; but such was our situation with regard to the Crown lands, and the sentiments of Maryland on that subject, that he perceived we should again be at sea, if no guard was provided for the right of the U. States to the back lands. He suggested that it might be proper to provide that nothing in the Const.i.tution should affect the Right of the U. S. to lands ceded by G. Britain in the Treaty of peace, and proposed a committment to a member from each State. He a.s.sured the House that this was a point of a most serious nature. It was desirable above all things that the act of the Convention might be agreed to unanimously. But should this point be disregarded, he believed that all risks would be run by a considerable minority, sooner than give their concurrence.

M^r L. Martin 2^{ded} the motion for a commitment.

M^r Rutlidge. Is it to be supposed that the States are to be cut up without their own consent. The case of Vermont will probably be particularly provided for. There could be no room to fear, that Virginia or N. Carolina would call on the U. States to maintain their Government over the Mountains.

M^r Williamson said that N. Carolina was well disposed to give up her western lands, but attempts at compulsion was not the policy of the U.

S. He was for doing nothing in the const.i.tution in the present case, and for leaving the whole matter in Statu quo.

M^r Wilson was against the commitment. Unanimity was of great importance, but not to be purchased by the majority's yielding to the minority. He should have no objection to leaving the case of the new States as heretofore. He knew nothing that would give greater or juster alarm than the doctrine, that a political society is to be torn a.s.sunder without its own consent.

On M^r Carrol's motion for commitment

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Sherman moved to postpone the subst.i.tute for Art: XVII agreed to yesterday in order to take up the following amendment

The Legislature shall have power to admit other States into the Union, and new States to be formed by the division or junction of States now in the Union, with the consent of the Legislature of such States." (The first part was meant for the case of Vermont to secure its admission.)

On the question, it pa.s.sed in the negative.

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

Doc^r Johnson moved to insert the words "hereafter formed or" after the words "shall be" in the subst.i.tute for Art: XVII (the more clearly to save Vermont as being already formed into a State, from a dependence on the consent of N. York for her admission.) The motion was agreed to Del.

& M^d only dissenting.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to strike out the word "limits" in the subst.i.tute, and insert the word "jurisdiction". (This also was meant to guard the case of Vermont, the jurisdiction of N. York not extending over Vermont which was in the exercise of sovereignty, tho' Vermont was within the a.s.serted limits of New York.)

On this question

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r L. Martin urged the unreasonableness of forcing & guaranteeing the people of Virginia beyond the Mountains, the Western people of N.

Carolina & of Georgia, & the people of Maine, to continue under the States now governing them, without the consent of those States to their separation. Even if they should become the _majority_, the majority of _Counties_, as in Virginia may still hold fast the dominion over them.

Again the majority may place the seat of Government entirely among themselves & for their own conveniency, and still keep the injured parts of the States in subjection, under the guarantee of the Gen^l Government ag^{st} domestic violence. He wished M^r Wilson had thought a little sooner of the value of _political_ bodies. In the beginning, when the rights of the small States were in question, they were phantoms, ideal beings. Now when the Great States were to be affected, political societies were of a sacred nature. He repeated and enlarged on the unreasonableness of requiring the small States to guarantee the Western claims of the large ones.--It was said yesterday by M^r Gov^r Morris, that if the large States were to be split to pieces without their consent, their representatives here would take their leave. If the Small States are to be required to guarantee them in this manner, it will be found that the Representatives of other States will with equal firmness take their leave of the Const.i.tution on the table.

It was moved by M^r L. Martin to postpone the subst.i.tuted article, in order to take up the following.

"The Legislature of the U. S. shall have power to erect New States within as well as without the territory claimed by the several States or either of them, and admit the same into the Union: provided that nothing in this Const.i.tution shall be construed to affect the claim of the U. S. to vacant lands ceded to them by the late treaty of peace, which pa.s.sed in the negative: N. J. Del. & M^d only ay.

On the question to agree to M^r Gov^r Morris's subst.i.tuted article as amended in the words following.

"New States may be admitted by the Legislature into the Union: but no new State shall be hereafter formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any of the present States without the consent of the Legislature of such State as well as of the General Legislature"

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r d.i.c.kinson moved to add the following clause to the last--

"Nor shall any State be formed by the junction of two or more States or parts thereof, without the consent of the Legislature of such States, as well as of the Legislature of the U. States,"

which was agreed to without a count of the votes.

M^r Carrol moved to add--"Provided nevertheless that nothing in this Const.i.tution shall be construed to affect the claim of the U. S. to vacant lands ceded to them by the Treaty of peace." This he said might be understood as relating to lands not claimed by any particular States, but he had in view also some of the claims of particular States.

M^r Wilson was ag^{st} the motion. There was nothing in the Const.i.tution affecting one way or the other the claims of the U. S. & it was best to insert nothing, leaving every thing on that litigated subject in statu quo.

M^r Madison considered the claim of the U. S. as in fact favored by the jurisdiction of the Judicial power of the U. S. over controversies to which they should be parties. He thought it best on the whole to be silent on the subject. He did not view the proviso of Mr. Carrol as dangerous; but to make it neutral & fair, it ought to go further & declare that the claims of particular States also should not be affected.

M^r Sherman thought the proviso harmless, especially with the addition suggested by M^r Madison in favor of the claims of particular States.

M^r Baldwin did not wish any undue advantage to be given to Georgia. He thought the proviso proper with the addition proposed. It should be remembered that if Georgia has gained much by the cession in the Treaty of peace, she was in danger during the war of a Uti possidetis.

M^r Rutlidge thought it wrong to insert a proviso where there was nothing which it could restrain, or on which it could operate.

M^r Carrol withdrew his motion and moved the following.

"Nothing in this Const.i.tution shall be construed to alter the claims of the U. S. or of the individual States to the Western territory, but all such claims shall be examined into & decided upon, by the Supreme Court of the U. States."

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to postpone this in order to take up the following.