The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 28

TUESDAY AUGUST 21. IN CONVENTION

Governour Livingston[35] from the Committee of Eleven to whom was referred the propositions respecting the debts of the several States and also the Militia entered on the 18^{th} inst: delivered the following report:

[35] "Governor Livingston is confessedly a Man of the first rate talents, but he appears to me rather to indulge a sportiveness of wit, than a strength of thinking. He is however equal to anything, from the extensiveness of his education and genius. His writings teem with satyr and a neatness of style. But he is no Orator, and seems little acquainted with the guiles of policy. He is about 60 years old, and remarkably healthy."--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist.

Rev._, iii., 327.

"The Legislature of the U. S. shall have power to fulfil the engagements which have been entered into by Congress, and to discharge as well the debts of the U. S. as the debts incurred by the several States during the late war, for the common defence and general welfare."

"To make laws for organizing arming and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the U. S. reserving to the States respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by the U. States."

M^r Gerry considered giving the power only, without adopting the obligation, as destroying the security now enjoyed by the public creditors of the U-- States. He enlarged on the merit of this cla.s.s of citizens, and the solemn faith which had been pledged under the existing Confederation. If their situation should be changed as here proposed great opposition would be excited ag^{st} the plan. He urged also that as the States had made different degrees of exertion to sink their respective debts, those who had done most would be alarmed, if they were now to be saddled with a share of the debts of States which had done least.

M^r Sherman. It means neither more nor less than the confederation as it relates to this subject.

M^r Elseworth moved that the Report delivered in by Gov^r Livingston should lie on the table.--Agreed to nem. con.

Art: VII. Sect. 3 resumed.--M^r d.i.c.kinson moved to postpone this in order to reconsider Art: IV. Sect. 4. and to _limit_ the number of representatives to be allowed to the large States. Unless this were done the small States would be reduced to entire insignificancy, and encouragement given to the importation of slaves.

M^r Sherman would agree to such a reconsideration, but did not see the necessity of postponing the section before the House.--M^r d.i.c.kenson withdrew his motion.

Art: VII. Sect 3. then agreed to 10 ays, Delaware alone being no.

M^r Sherman moved to add to Sect 3. the following clause "And all accounts of supplies furnished, services performed, and monies advanced by the several States to the U. States, or by the U. S. to the several States shall be adjusted by the same rule."

M^r Govern^r Morris 2^{ds} the motion.

M^r Ghorum, thought it wrong to insert this in the Const.i.tution. The Legislature will no doubt do what is right. The present Congress have such a power and are now exercising it.

M^r Sherman unless some rule be expressly given none will exist under the new system.

M^r Elseworth. Though The contracts of Congress will be binding, there will be no rule for executing them on the States; and one ought to be provided.

M^r Sherman withdrew his motion to make way for one of M^r Williamson to add to Sect. 3. "By this rule the several quotas of the States shall be determined in settling the expences of the late war."

M^r Carrol brought into view the difficulty that might arise on this subject from the establishment of the Const.i.tution as intended without the _unanimous_ consent of the States.

M^r Williamson's motion was postponed nem. con.

Art: VI Sect. 12. which had been postponed of Aug: 15. was now called for by Col. Mason, who wished to know how the proposed amendment as to money bills would be decided, before he agreed to any further points.

M^r Gerry's motion of yesterday that previous to a census, direct taxation be proportioned on the States according to the number of Representatives, was taken up. He observed that the princ.i.p.al acts of Government would probably take place within that period, and it was but reasonable that the States should pay in proportion to their share in them.

M^r Elseworth thought such a rule unjust. There was a great difference between the number of Represent^s and the number of inhabitants as a rule in this case. Even if the former were proportioned as nearly as possible to the latter, it would be a very inaccurate rule. A State might have one Representative only that had inhabitants enough for 1-1/2 or more, if fractions could be applied, &c.--. He proposed to amend the motion by adding the words, "subject to a final liquidation by the foregoing rule when a census shall have been taken."

M^r Madison. The last appointment of Cong^s on which the number of Representatives was founded, was conjectural and meant only as a temporary rule till a Census should be established.

M^r Read. The requisitions of Cong^s had been accommodated to the impoverishment produced by the war; and to other local and temporary circ.u.mstances.

M^r Williamson opposed M^r Gerry's motion.

M^r Langdon was not here when N. H. was allowed three members. If it was more than her share; he did not wish for them.

M^r Butler contended warmly for M^r Gerry's motion as founded in reason and equity.

M^r Elseworth's proviso to M^r Gerry's motion was agreed to nem. con.

M^r King thought the power of taxation given to the Legislature rendered the motion of M^r Gerry altogether unnecessary.

On M^r Gerry's motion as amended

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. div^d. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On a question, Shall Art: VI Sect. 12. with the amendment to it proposed & entered on the 15 instant, as called for by Col. Mason be now taken up? It pa.s.sed in the negative.

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. no. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d ay.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r L. Martin. The power of taxation is most likely to be criticised by the public. Direct taxation should not be used but in cases of absolute necessity; and then the States will be the best Judges of the mode. He therefore moved the following addition to Sect: 3: Art VII "And whenever the Legislature of the U. S. shall find it necessary that revenue should be raised by direct taxation, having apportioned the same, according to the above rule on the several States, requisitions shall be made of the respective States to pay into the Continental Treasury their respective quotas within a time in the said requisitions specified; and in case of any of the States failing to comply with such requisitions, then and then only to devise and pa.s.s acts directing the mode, and authorizing the collection of the same."

M^r M^cHenry 2^{ded} the motion--there was no debate, and on the question

N. H. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. Pen^a no. Del. no. M^d div^d.

(Jenifer & Carol no) V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Art. VII. Sect. 4.--M^r Langdon, by this section the States are left at liberty to tax exports. N. H. therefore with other non-exporting States, will be subject to be taxed by the States exporting its produce. This could not be admitted. It seems to be feared that the Northern States will oppress the trade of the South^n. This may be guarded ag^{st} by requiring the concurrence of 2/3 or 3/4 of the legislature in such cases.

M^r Elseworth. It is best as it stands. The power of regulating trade between the States will protect them ag^{st} each other. Should this not be the case, the attempts of one to tax the produce of another pa.s.sing through its hands, will force a direct exportation and defeat themselves. There are solid reasons ag^{st} Cong^s taxing exports. 1. it will discourage industry, as taxes on imports discourage luxury. 2. The produce of different States is such as to prevent uniformity in such taxes. There are indeed but a few articles that could be taxed at all; as Tob^o rice & indigo, and a tax on these alone would be partial & unjust. 3. The taxing of exports would engender incurable jealousies.

M^r Williamson. Tho' N. C. has been taxed by Virg^a by a duty on 12000 Hhs of her Tob^o exported thro' Virg^a yet he would never agree to this power. Should it take place, it would destroy the last hope of an adoption of the plan.

M^r Gov^r Morris. These local considerations ought not to impede the general interest. There is great weight in the argument, that the exporting States will tax the produce of their uncommercial neighbours.

The power of regulating the trade between P^a & N. Jersey will never prevent the former from taxing the latter. Nor will such a tax force a direct exportation from N. Jersey. The advantages possessed by a large trading City, outweigh the disadvantage of a moderate duty; and will retain the trade in that channel. If no tax can be laid on exports, an embargo cannot be laid though in time of war such a measure may be of critical importance. Tobacco, lumber and live-stock are three objects belonging to different States, of which great advantage might be made by a power to tax exports. To these may be added Genseng and Masts for s.h.i.+ps by which a tax might be thrown on other nations. The idea of supplying the West Indies with lumber from Nova Scotia is one of the many follies of lord Sheffield's pamphlets. The State of the Country also will change, and render duties on exports, as skins, beaver & other peculiar raw materials, politic in the view of encouraging American manufactures.

M^r Butler was strenuously opposed to a power over exports, as unjust and alarming to the staple States.

M^r Langdon suggested a prohibition on the States from taxing the produce of other States exported from their harbours.

M^r d.i.c.kenson. The power of taxing exports may be inconvenient at present; but it must be of dangerous consequence to prohibit it with respect to all articles and for ever. He thought it would be better to except particular articles from the power.

M^r Sherman. It is best to prohibit the National legislature in all cases. The States will never give up all power over trade. An enumeration of particular articles would be difficult invidious and improper.

M^r Madison. As we ought to be governed by national and permanent views, it is a sufficient argument for giving y^e power over exports that a tax, tho' it may not be expedient at present, may be so hereafter. A proper regulation of exports may & probably will be necessary hereafter, and for the same purposes as the regulation of imports; viz, for revenue--domestic manufactures--and procuring equitable regulations from other nations. An Embargo may be of absolute necessity, and can alone be effectuated by the Gen^l authority. The regulation of trade between State and State cannot effect more than indirectly to hinder a State from taxing its own exports; by authorizing its Citizens to carry their commodities freely into a neighbouring State which might decline taxing exports in order to draw into its channel the trade of its neighbours. As to the fear of disproportionate burthens on the more exporting States, it might be remarked that it was agreed on all hands that the revenue w^d princ.i.p.ally be drawn from trade, and as only a given revenue would be needed, it was not material whether all should be drawn wholly from imports--or half from those, and half from exports. The imports and exports must be pretty nearly equal in every State--and relatively the same among the different States.

M^r Elseworth did not conceive an embargo by the Congress interdicted by this section.