The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 25

M^r Rutlidge remarked on the length of the Session, the probable impatience of the public and the extreme anxiety of many members of the Convention to bring the business to an end; concluding with a motion that the Convention meet henceforward precisely at 10 Oc A.M. and that precisely at 4 Oc P.M. the President adjourn the House without motion for the purpose, and that no motion to adjourn sooner be allowed.

On this question

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Elseworth observed that a Council had not yet been provided for the President. He conceived there ought to be one. His proposition was that it should be composed of the President of the Senate, the Chief Justice, and the ministers as they might be estab^d for the departments of foreign & domestic affairs, war finance and marine, who should advise but not conclude the President.

M^r Pinkney wished the proposition to lie over, as notice had been given for a like purpose by M^r Gov^r Morris who was not then on the floor.

His own idea was that the President sh^d be authorized to call for advice or not as he might chuse. Give him an able Council and it will thwart him; a weak one and he will shelter himself under their sanction.

M^r Gerry was ag^{st} letting the heads of the Departments, particularly of finance have any thing to do in business connected with legislation.

He mentioned the Chief Justice also as particularly exceptionable. These men will also be so taken up with other matters as to neglect their own proper duties.

M^r d.i.c.kenson urged that the great appointments should be made by the Legislature in which case they might properly be consulted by the Executive, but not if made by the Executive himself--This subject by general consent lay over; & the House proceeded to the clause "To raise armies."

M^r Ghorum moved to add "and support" after "raise." Agreed to nem. con.

and then the clause was agreed to nem. con. as amended.

M^r Gerry took notice that there was no check here ag^{st} standing armies in time of peace. The existing Cong^s is so constructed that it cannot of itself maintain an army. This w^d not be the case under the new system. The people were jealous on this head, and great opposition to the plan would spring from such an omission. He suspected that preparations of force were now making ag^{st} it. (he seemed to allude to the activity of the Gov^r of N. York at this crisis in disciplining the militia of that State.) He thought an army dangerous in time of peace & could never consent to a power to keep up an indefinite number.

He proposed that there shall not be kept up in time of peace more than ---- thousand troops. His idea was that the blank should be filled with two or three thousand.

Instead of "to build and equip fleets"--"to provide and maintain a navy"

agreed to nem. con. as a more convenient definition of the power.

"To make rules for the Government and regulation of the land & naval forces," added from the existing Articles of Confederation.

M^r L. Martin and M^r Gerry now regularly moved "provided that in time of peace the army shall not consist of more than ---- thousand men."

Gen^l Pinkney asked whether no troops were ever to be raised untill an attack should be made on us?

M^r Gerry. If there be no restriction, a few States may establish a military Gov^t.

M^r Williamson, reminded him of M^r Mason's motion for limiting the appropriation of revenue as the best guard in this case.

M^r Langdon saw no room for M^r Gerry's distrust of the Representatives of the people.

M^r Dayton. Preparations for war are generally made in peace; and a standing force of some sort may, for ought we know, become unavoidable.

He should object to no restrictions consistent with these ideas.

The motion of M^r Martin and M^r Gerry was disagreed to nem. con.

M^r Mason moved as an additional power "to make laws for the regulation and discipline of the militia of the several States, reserving to the States the appointment of the officers." He considered uniformity as necessary in the regulation of the Militia throughout the Union.

Gen^l Pinkney mentioned a case during the war in which a dissimilarity in the militia of different States had produced the most serious mischiefs. Uniformity was essential. The States would never keep up a proper discipline of their militia.

M^r Elseworth was for going as far in submitting the militia to the Gen^l Government as might be necessary, but thought the motion of M^r Mason went too far. He moved that the militia should have the same arms & exercise and be under rules established by the Gen^l Gov^t when in actual service of the U. States and when States neglect to provide regulations for militia, it sh^d be regulated & established by the Legislature of U. S. The whole authority over the militia ought by no means to be taken away from the States whose consequence would pine away to nothing after such a sacrifice of power. He thought the Gen^l Authority could not sufficiently pervade the Union for such a purpose, nor could it accommodate itself to the local genius of the people. It must be vain to ask the States to give the Militia out of their hands.

M^r Sherman 2^{ds} the motion.

M^r d.i.c.kenson. We are come now to a most important matter, that of the sword. His opinion was that the States never would nor ought to give up all authority over the Militia. He proposed to restrain the general power to one fourth part at a time, which by rotation would discipline the whole Militia.

M^r Butler urged the necessity of submitting the whole Militia to the general Authority, which had the care of the general defence.

M^r Mason. had suggested the idea of a select militia. He was led to think that would be in fact as much as the Gen^l Gov^t could advantageously be charged with. He was afraid of creating insuperable objections to the plan. He withdrew his original motion, and moved a power "to make laws for regulating and disciplining the militia, not exceeding one tenth part in any one year, and reserving the appointment of officers to the States."

Gen^l Pinkney, renewed M^r Mason's original motion. For a part to be under the Gen^l and a part under the State Gov^{ts} w^d be an incurable evil. he saw no room for such distrust of the Gen^l Gov^t.

M^r Langdon 2^{ds} General Pinkney's renewal. He saw no more reason to be afraid of the Gen^l Gov^t than of the State Gov^{ts}. He was more apprehensive of the confusion of the different authorities on this subject, than of either.

M^r Madison thought the regulation of the Militia naturally appertaining to the authority charged with the public defence. It did not seem in its nature to be divisible between two distinct authorities. If the States would trust the Gen^l Gov^t with a power over the public treasure, they would from the same consideration of necessity grant it the direction of the public force. Those who had a full view of the public situation w^d from a sense of the danger, guard ag^{st} it: the States would not be separately impressed with the general situation, nor have the due confidence in the concurrent exertions of each other.

M^r Elseworth, considered the idea of a select militia as impracticable; & if it were not it would be followed by a ruinous declension of the great body of the Militia. The States would never submit to the same militia laws. Three or four s.h.i.+llings as a penalty will enforce better obedience in New England, than forty lashes in some other places.

M^r Pinkney thought the power such an one as could not be abused, and that the States would see the necessity of surrendering it. He had however but a scanty faith in Militia. There must be also a real military force. This alone can effectually answer the purpose. The United States had been making an experiment without it, and we see the consequence in their rapid approaches toward anarchy.[34]

[34] This had reference to the disorders particularly that had occurred in Ma.s.sach^{ts} which had called for the interposition of the federal troops.--Madison's Note.

M^r Sherman, took notice that the States might want their militia for defence ag^{st} invasions and insurrections, and for enforcing obedience to their laws. They will not give up this point. In giving up that of taxation, they retain a concurrent power of raising money for their own use.

M^r Gerry thought this the last point remaining to be surrendered. If it be agreed to by the Convention, the plan will have as black a mark as was set on Cain. He had no such confidence in the Gen^l Gov^t as some gentlemen possessed, and believed it would be found that the States have not.

Col. Mason, thought there was great weight in the remarks of M^r Sherman, and moved an exception to his motion "of such part of the militia as might be required by the States for their own use."

M^r Read doubted the propriety of leaving the appointment of the Militia officers in the States. In some States they are elected by the Legislatures; in others by the people themselves. He thought at least an appointment by the State Executives ought to be insisted on.

On committing to the grand Committee last appointed, the latter motion of Col. Mason, & the original one revived by Ge^l Pinkney

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d div^d.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Adjourned.

MONDAY AUGUST 20. IN CONVENTION

M^r Pinkney submitted to the House, in order to be referred to the Committee of detail, the following propositions--"Each House shall be the judge of its own privileges, and shall have authority to punish by imprisonment every person violating the same, or who, in the place where the Legislature may be sitting and during the time of its Session, shall threaten any of its members for any thing said or done in the House; or who shall a.s.sault any of them therefor--or who shall a.s.sault or arrest any witness or other person ordered to attend either of the Houses in his way going or returning; or who shall rescue any person arrested by their order."

"Each branch of the Legislature, as well as the supreme Executive shall have authority to require the opinions of the supreme Judicial Court upon important questions of law, and upon solemn occasions."

"The privileges and benefit of the Writ of Habeas corpus shall be enjoyed in this Government in the most expeditious and ample manner; and shall not be suspended by the Legislature except upon the most urgent and pressing occasions, and for a limited time not exceeding ---- months."

"The liberty of the Press, shall be inviolably preserved."

"No troops shall be kept up in time of peace, but by consent of the Legislature."

"The military shall always be subordinate to the Civil power, and no grants of money shall be made by the Legislature for supporting military Land forces, for more than one year at a time."