The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume II Part 17

Adjourned.

SAt.u.r.dAY AUG^{ST} 11 IN CONVENTION

M^r Madison & M^r Rutlidge moved "that each House shall keep a journal of its proceedings, & shall publish the same from time to time; except such part of the proceedings of the Senate, when acting not in its Legislative capacity as may be judged by that House to require secrecy."

M^r Mercer. This implies that other powers than legislative will be given to the Senate which he hoped would not be given.

M^r Madison & M^r R's motion was disag^d to by all the States except Virg^a.

M^r Gerry & M^r Sherman moved to insert after the words "publish them"

the following "except such as relate to treaties & military operations."

Their object was to give each House a discretion in such cases.--On this question

N. H. no. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. V^a no.

N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Elseworth. As the clause is objectionable in so many shapes, it may as well be struck out altogether. The Legislature will not fail to publish their proceedings from time to time. The people will call for it if it should be improperly omitted.

M^r Wilson thought the expunging of the clause would be very improper.

The people have a right to know what their Agents are doing or have done, and it should not be in the option of the Legislature to conceal their proceedings. Besides as this is a clause in the existing confederation, the not retaining it would furnish the adversaries of the reform with a pretext by which weak & suspicious minds may be easily misled.

M^r Mason thought it would give a just alarm to the people, to make a conclave of their Legislature.

M^r Sherman thought the Legislature might be trusted in this case if in any.

Question on 1^{st} part of the section down to "_publish them_"

inclusive: Agreed to nem. con.

Question on the words to follow, to wit "except such parts thereof as may in their Judgment require secrecy."

N. H. div^d. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no.

M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

The remaining part as to yeas & nays,--agreed to nem. con.

Art VI. Sect. 8. taken up.

M^r King remarked that the section authorized the 2 Houses to adjourn to a new place. He thought this inconvenient. The mutability of place had dishonored the federal Gov^t and would require as strong a cure as we could devise. He thought a law at least should be made necessary to a removal of the Seat of Gov^t.

M^r Madison viewed the subject in the same light, and joined with M^r King in a motion requiring a law.

Mr. Govern^r Morris proposed the additional alteration by inserting the words, "during the Session" &c.

M^r Spaight. This will fix the seat of Gov^t at N. Y. The present Congress will convene them there in the first instance, and they will never be able to remove, especially if the Presid^t should be [a]

Northern Man.

M^r Gov^r Morris such a distrust is inconsistent with all Gov^t.

M^r Madison supposed that a central place for the seat of Gov^t was so just and w^d be so much insisted on by the H. of Representatives, that though a law should be made requisite for the purpose, it could & would be obtained. The necessity of a central residence of the Gov^t w^d be much greater under the new than old Gov^t. The members of the new Gov^t w^d be more numerous. They would be taken more from the interior parts of the States; they w^d not like members of y^e present Cong^s come so often from the distant States by water. As the powers & objects of the new Gov^t would be far greater y^e heretofore, more private individuals w^d have business calling them to the seat of it, and it was more necessary that the Gov^t should be in that position from which it could contemplate with the most equal eye, and sympathize most equally with, every part of the nation. These considerations he supposed would extort a removal even if a law were made necessary. But in order to quiet suspicions both within & without doors, it might not be amiss to authorize the 2 Houses by a concurrent vote to adjourn at their first meeting to the most proper place, and to require thereafter, the sanction of a law to their removal.

The motion was accordingly moulded into the following form: "the Legislature shall at their first a.s.sembling determine on a place at which their future sessions shall be held; neither House shall afterwards, during the session of the House of Rep^s without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor shall they adjourn to any other place than such as shall have been fixt by law."

M^r Gerry thought it would be wrong to let the Presid^t check the will of the 2 Houses on this subject at all.

M^r Williamson supported the ideas of M^r Spaight.

M^r Carrol was actuated by the same apprehensions.

M^r Mercer, it will serve no purpose to require the two Houses at their first meeting to fix on a place. They will never agree.

After some further expressions from others denoting an apprehension that the seat of Gov^t might be continued at an improper place if a law should be made necessary to a removal, and the motion above stated with another for recommitting the section had been negatived, the section was left in the shape in which it was reported as to this point. The words, "during the session of the Legislature" were prefixed to the 8^{th} section--and the last sentence "But this regulation shall not extend to the Senate when it shall exercise the powers mentioned in the ---- article" struck out. The 8^{th} section as amended was then agreed to.

M^r Randolph moved according to notice to reconsider Art: IV. Sect. 5.

concerning money bills which had been struck out. He argued 1. that he had not wished for this privilege whilst a proportional Representation in the Senate was in contemplation, but since an equality had been fixed in that house, the large States would require this compensation at least. 2. that it would make the plan more acceptable to the people, because they will consider the Senate as the more aristocratic body, and will expect that the usual guards ag^{st} its influence be provided according to the example in G. Britain. 3. the privilege will give some advantage to the House of Rep^s if it extends to the originating only--but still more if it restrains the Senate from amend^g. 4. he called on the smaller States to concur in the measure, as the condition by which alone the compromise had ent.i.tled them to an equality in the Senate. He signified that he should propose instead of the original section, a clause specifying that the bills in question should be for the purpose of Revenue, in order to repel y^e objection ag^{st} the extent of the words, "_raising money_," which might happen incidentally, and that the Senate should not so amend or alter as to increase or diminish the sum; in order to obviate the inconveniences urged ag^{st} a restriction of the Senate to a simple affirmation or negative.

M^r Williamson 2^{ded} the motion.

M^r Pinkney was sorry to oppose the opportunity gentlemen asked to have the question again opened for discussion, but as he considered it a mere waste of time he could not bring himself to consent to it. He said that notwithstanding what had been said as to the compromise, he always considered this section as making no part of it. The rule of Representation in the 1^{st} branch was the true condition of that in the 2^d branch.--Several others spoke for & ag^{st} the reconsideration, but without going into the merits.--On the Question to reconsider

N. H. ay. Ma.s.s. ay. C^t ay. N. J.[22] ay. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. div^d. Geo. ay.--Monday was then a.s.signed--

[22] In the printed Journal N. Jersey--no.--Madison's Note.

Adj^d.[23]

[23] The next day being Sunday, Madison wrote to his father:

"PHILAD^A Aug^{st} 12, 1787.

"HON^D SIR

"I wrote to you lately inclosing a few newspapers. I now send a few more, not because they are interesting but because they may supply the want of intelligence that might be more so. The Convention rea.s.sembled at the time my last mentioned that they had adjourned to. It is not possible yet to determine the period to which the Session will be spun out. It must be some weeks from this date at least, and possibly may be computed by months. Eleven states are on the ground, and have generally been so since the second or third week of the Session. Rhode Island is one of the absent States. She has never yet appointed deputies. N. H. till of late was the other. That State is now represented. But just before the arrival of her deputies, those of N. York left us.--We have till within a few days had very cool weather.

It is now pleasant, after a fine rain. Our acc^{ts} from Virg^a give us but an imperfect idea of the prospects with you. In particular places the drouth we hear has been dreadful. Gen^l Was.h.i.+ngton's neighbourhood is among the most suffering of them. I wish to know how your neighbourhood is off. But my chief anxiety is to hear that your health is re-established. The hope that this may procure me that information is the princ.i.p.al motive for writing it, having as you will readily see not been led to it by any thing worth communicating. With my love to my mother & the rest of the family I remain Dear Sir

"Y^r aff^t son."

(Mad. MSS.)

Edward Carrington wrote to Madison from New York, August 11, showing the solicitude of federalist members of Congress:

"... The President has been requested to write to the states unrepresented, pressing upon them the objects which require the attendance of their delegations, & urging them to come forward, amongst the objects is that of the report of the convention, which, it is supposed, is now in the State of parturition--this bantling must receive the blessing of Congress this session, or, I fear, it will expire before the new one will a.s.semble; every experiment has its critical stages which must be taken as they occur, or the whole will fail--the peoples expectations are rising with the progress of this work, but will desert it, should it remain long with Congress--permit me to suggest one idea as to the mode of obtaining the accession of the States to the new plan of government--let the convention appoint _one_ day, say the 1^{st} of May, upon which a convention appointed by the people shall be held in each state, for the purpose of accepting or rejecting in toto, the project--supposing an act of the ordinary legislatures to be equally authentic, which would not be true, yet many reasons present themselves in favor of--special conventions--many men would be admitted who are excluded from the legislatures--the business would be taken up unclogged with any other--and it would effectually call the attention of all the people to the object as seriously affecting them. All the States being in convention at the same time, opportunities of speculating upon the views of each other would be cut off--the project should be decided upon without an attempt to alter it--you have doubtless found it difficult to reconcile the different opinions in your body--will it not be impossible then, to reconcile those which will arise amongst numerous a.s.semblies in the different states? It is possible there never may be a general consent to the project as it goes out; but it is absolutely certain there will never be an agreement in amendments. It is the lot of but few to be able to discern the remote principles upon which their happiness & prosperity essentially depend--."--(Mad. MSS.)