A Report of the Debates and Proceedings in the Secret Sessions of the Conference Part 54

The motion of Mr. EWING prevailed by the following vote: Ayes, 11; Noes, 10.[6]

[Footnote 6: I relied upon the Journal for the individual list of the votes. In this respect the Journal is defective, and does not give the names of the States voting. My minutes show that the vote was taken by States with the foregoing result.]

Messrs. MEREDITH, WILMOT, and CHASE dissented from the votes of their respective States.

Mr. FIELD:--I now offer it as an amendment to the 7th section.

Mr. BRONSON:--I rise to a point of order. My colleague has proposed this amendment as an additional section, and it has been laid upon the table. He now proposes to put the same thing in another place. That is certainly not in order.

Mr. FIELD:--I now offer it distinctly as an amendment to the 7th section, to avoid the quibbling by which a direct vote was avoided before. It may as well be understood that other than slave States have certain rights upon this floor, and that those rights will be a.s.serted. I wish gentlemen to understand that I shall resist, as well as I may, every attempt to avoid or dodge this question.

The PRESIDENT:--In the opinion of the Chair it is not in order.

Mr. FIELD:--Then I offer one-half the amendment as follows: "The Union of the States, under the Const.i.tution, is indissoluble."

Mr. WICKLIFFE:--Is it necessary to put this into the Const.i.tution?

Does not the gentleman think the Const.i.tution prohibits secession now?

If so, let him offer a resolution to that effect, and I will vote for it.

Mr. DENT:--I rise to a point of order. The amendment is not germane to the section.

The PRESIDENT:--That is entirely a matter of opinion. The Chair cannot rule out an amendment on that ground.

Mr. FIELD:--If gentlemen will give us a square vote on my proposition, I will not debate it.

Mr. GUTHRIE:--I believe every word that is stated in that proposition. It is all in the Const.i.tution now; but the South thinks differently, and this is one of the great obstructions in our path.

There is not a man here who does not believe that this provision is already in the Const.i.tution. I hope, therefore, that we shall vote at once, and vote it down.

Mr. EWING:--The amendment proposed, implies the existence of the right of secession, under the present Const.i.tution. I do not believe in that, and shall therefore vote against it.

Mr. FIELD:--I desire to obtain a clear vote upon this question, and not have it pa.s.s off upon any technical points. I will withdraw my amendment, and now move to amend the 7th section by striking out the whole of it, and inserting in its place the following:

"No State shall withdraw from the Union without the consent of all the States, given in a Convention of the States, convened in pursuance of an act pa.s.sed by two-thirds of each House of Congress."

Mr. GOODRICH:--I do not quite like the language of the amendment, for it might seem to give the implication of a right to secede. I move the following as a subst.i.tute:

"And no State can secede from the Union, or nullify an act of Congress, or absolve its citizens from their paramount obligations of obedience to the Const.i.tution and laws of the United States."

Mr. MOREHEAD, of North Carolina:--There is no objection on my part against the gentleman from New York taking any course he pleases, and as much time as he likes; but I should regret extremely to have this amendment adopted, and to have the Const.i.tution made practically to a.s.sert a right of secession. I have denied that right always in my State, in public and in private. I am aware that on this point I differ from the general sentiment of the South, and I hold there is no right of secession, and on the part of the General Government no right of coercion. I claim that a State has no right to secede, because that right is not found in the Const.i.tution, and the theory of the Const.i.tution is against it.

The PRESIDENT:--I think the amendment of Mr. GOODRICH is not in order.

Mr. FIELD:--As suggested by a friend, I will modify my motion, and state it in this way, which certainly will avoid all these objections:

"It is declared to be the true intent and meaning of the present Const.i.tution, that the Union of the States under it is indissoluble."

Mr. COALTER:--Does the gentleman mean this as a subst.i.tute for the entire report of the committee, for all that we have hitherto done?

Mr. FIELD:--Certainly not.

Mr. COALTER:--We have not met here for any such purpose as that indicated in the present amendment. We are not here to discuss the question of secession. We are here because the Border States are alarmed for their own safety. We wish them to remain in the Union. The purpose of our consultations is to make an arrangement under which they can stay in the Union. If we do not confine ourselves to that purpose, and leave these questions alone, our differences may be submitted to a greater than any human judge. I hope, in Heaven's name, they will not be submitted to the arbitrament of battle. No practical good whatever can come from debating this amendment. I move to lay it on the table; but if that motion will have the effect to carry the whole report on the table, I will not make it.

Mr. CRISFIELD:--I shall vote against this amendment. I believe the Const.i.tution is endowed with sufficient authority to accomplish its own preservation, and to carry into execution its own laws; and, believing so, I deny the right of secession, but the right of revolution is a natural right possessed by every people. They may revolutionize their governments when they become oppressive. The Const.i.tution was adopted as the logical consequence of this idea.

There is no use now in discussing the abstract question of secession.

We must treat the present condition of the Gulf States as a revolution in fact accomplished. We must meet them fairly. I vote against this amendment, and wish to stand right upon the record. If the history of this Convention is to be written, I do not wish to be handed down to posterity as one who favors the right of secession, which I believe to be a radical error.

Mr. WILMOT:--Pennsylvania is agreed in principle upon the doctrine of this amendment. I believe the whole North agrees also that the right of secession cannot be conceded, but my colleagues and myself differ essentially as to the manner in which we shall make our doctrine most effective. I think the true way is, to vote for this plain proposition, and not vote against it.

Now, all the North agrees that there is no right under the Const.i.tution to interfere with slavery where it exists. No one has ever a.s.serted such right, or believed in it. We are now asked to give a declaratory provision on that subject--to give it in order to quiet the slave States. One of my colleagues--Mr. POLLOCK--was willing to give that declaratory clause, which was necessary. I went with him in that; I now ask him to go with me, not against a mere shadow, but against what is the doctrine of a large portion of the people of the slave States; a doctrine of that proportion which proposes to overthrow the Const.i.tution of the country. It is a demoralizing doctrine. My colleague proposes to vote against it. Did my colleague believe that any one proposed to interfere with slavery in the States?

Mr. POLLOCK:--No, I do not believe there was any such intention entertained by any considerable party. But there was an apprehension upon this subject in the slave States, caused by the action of a few radical men at the North. I was willing to vote for a declaratory resolution to quiet that apprehension.

Mr. WILMOT:--This amendment points to something more than an apprehension. It deals with an existing fact. Seven States have already gone out of the Union, a.s.serting that the princ.i.p.al allegiance of their people is to the State, and not to the General Government. I think it high time that the Const.i.tution was made unequivocal upon this subject of secession.

Mr. PRICE:--I occupy even a few minutes of time with much reluctance.

Time is precious to us--too precious to be used in debate. I believe in the doctrine of the gentleman from New York. That is the doctrine of my State; but I believe in a great many other things which it is not necessary to insert in the Const.i.tution. We came here to treat a fact, a great fact. There is a Southern Confederacy--there is a President DAVIS--there is a Government organized within the Union hostile to the United States. I came here, as the gentleman from Illinois has said, to act as if I had never given a vote or united with a political party. I say, with my colleague, that when the country is in danger my political robes hang loosely upon my shoulders.

There is an element in this Conference which, from the first day of our session, has opposed any action. Its policy has been to distract and divide our counsels, to put off every thing, to prevent all action. How different this is from what I expected when I came here.

Shall we sit here debating abstract questions when State after State is seceding? I hope not. I trust the patriotic spirit which animates a majority of this Conference will to-day send forth a proposition which will restore peace to the country. We all agree to the principle contained in this amendment; but if we adopt it and make it a part of the Const.i.tution, we could never, under it, bring back the seceded States. They will not admit the principle. What is to be gained, then, by adopting it? Why will gentlemen insist upon propositions which will nullify our action? New Jersey occupies high const.i.tutional ground.

She is ready to do any thing that is fair, and she goes for these propositions of the majority because they are fair. She will adopt these, and I believe every State will adopt them--New York as quickly as any. I do not think the gentleman properly represents the wishes of his const.i.tuents. He misrepresents them. Let us act, then, promptly, and act now. Every moment is precious. I know the trembling anxiety with which the country is awaiting our action. Do not let us sit here like the great Belshazzar till the handwriting appears on the wall.

Let us set our faces against delay. Let us put down with an indignant rebuke every attempt to demoralize our action or destroy its effect.

Mr. BUCKNER:--I move to amend the amendment of Mr. FIELD, by adding the following:

"But this declaration shall not be construed so as to give the Federal Government power or authority to coerce or to make war directly or indirectly upon a State, on account of a failure to comply with its obligations."

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN:--I hope the gentleman from New York will withdraw his resolution. The view of this Convention is against secession, and we all know that the Union of the States under the Const.i.tution is indissoluble. We know just as well that it is not necessary to a.s.sert this principle now. It is not expedient to a.s.sert it. We want to get back the seceded States. If we are earnest in this, is it best to call them traitors? I ask the gentleman whether the rejection of his proposition will not tend to weaken the Government and the Union? It will stand as a naked vote of rejection; the reasons why we vote against it will not go before the world.

Mr. BRONSON:--With the exception of a few minutes between eleven and twelve o'clock, a few nights since, I have not occupied the time or attention of the Conference. I will not now occupy but a few minutes.

I came here to do something. I supposed we could accomplish something.

We learned very soon after our arrival here that my colleague was opposed to any amendment of the Const.i.tution. The same is true of several of my colleagues; perhaps a majority of them are here to do nothing. I supposed that something ought to be done to quiet the country. Instead of that an amendment is now offered a.s.serting that we do not believe in the right of secession, that we do believe that these States which have seceded have done wrong. Suppose we do not believe in secession, what relevance has that to the present subject?

Such an amendment may be used to delay or embarra.s.s our action. There are a good many ways to defeat the project, a good many ways to suppress secession. My colleague looks to force alone. He proposes to bring back the seceded States by force. I contemplate the use of force in this connection with horror. It can never be used successfully.

We are here to agree upon something which will give peace to the country. Our committee has submitted a report which they think will accomplish that. My colleagues are skilful; they know how many ways there are to accomplish their purposes. One way to defeat any action here is by making long speeches, by loading down the propositions of amendment to the Const.i.tution with other amendments, which will make the whole thing offensive to the country.

I stand here for my country. I would leave politics and political parties in the back ground. I would vote for nothing here which is not pertinent to the Const.i.tution, and which will not help us in our attempts to quiet the apprehensions of our fellow-citizens. My colleague now brings forward a proposition which may be true in itself, but it is not pertinent and amounts to nothing. I am sorry he is not in his seat to hear what I have to say. He shot his arrow, and, I understand, has left for New York.

I am ready to vote down his proposition. I wish to see it voted down.

I am prepared to take all the consequences of voting it down, here and elsewhere. But I have drawn an amendment myself which I offer in lieu of his. Permit me to read it:

"While we do not recognize the const.i.tutional right of any State to secede from the Union, we are deeply impressed by the fact that this Government is not maintained by force, but by unity of origin and interest, inducing fraternal feelings between the people of different sections of the country; and our labors have been directed to the end of giving a new a.s.surance to our brethren, North, South, East, and West, of our determination to stand firmly by all the compromises of the Const.i.tution."

I think we can vote for this amendment. It denies the right of secession as explicitly as the amendment of my colleague. But it has no coercion about it, and it a.s.serts, as I understand it, the true principle upon which our Government is founded. I offer it as an expression of my own views. I have sat here for eight or ten days and have voted, except in a few instances, with the delegation from my own State. There is a bare majority of that delegation against the propositions of the committee. That majority ordinarily casts the vote of our State. I cannot express my views by my votes, and for that reason I undertake to express them in this amendment.

Mr. KING:--Like my colleague, I have taken but little part in the discussions in this Conference. I cannot be justly charged with having occupied time unnecessarily, as I have spoken on but one occasion, and then very briefly. I would not speak now if I did not sincerely believe this amendment to be eminently proper for the consideration of this body.

Myself and the majority of my colleagues differ from the majority of the Conference. That difference is an honest difference of opinion. It is based upon principle. If we consulted policy only, it would give us pleasure to yield to the wishes of the majority. But our first duty is to our const.i.tuents, and we must represent their opinions here. We should do it because our opinions coincide with theirs; and it was because we entertained these opinions that we were selected to represent New York in this body. When we are called upon to vote, we shall vote to carry out those opinions; and even when we differ from some of our colleagues, we are ent.i.tled to the same consideration from this body that they are. We do not intend to be driven from our position by threats or by intimidation. We believe that it is eminently proper for this Conference to express its decided convictions upon the question of secession. We are told here that secession is a fact. Then let us deal with it as such. I go for the enforcement of the laws pa.s.sed in pursuance of the Const.i.tution. I will never give up the idea that this is a Government of the people, and possessing within itself the power of enforcing its own decrees.

This I shall never do. This Conference could perform no n.o.bler act than that of sending to the country the announcement that the union of the States under the Const.i.tution is indissoluble, and that secession is but another term for rebellion.